2017 NEC kitchen island breaker question

[ramsy]

I'm kinda really just all around lost with this..

We can agree to disagree on how removing AFCI's also removes barriers to entry for shops run by laborers.

My opinion is based on local observation only, and may not happen everywhere.

In my State of CA, since Journeymen Wireman (JW) certification is only required for employees of Licensed C10 Electricians, its mostly General Contractors (GC) and owner builders running jobs with laborers.

Most rope-pulling is much easier to pass inspection, than properly operate with AFCI's. In the case of tenant improvement, it was also my experience apprenticing with a C10, who worked with GC shops run by laborers.

 

[infinity]

I'm kinda really just all around lost with this. I just don't understand why laborers are doing electrical work and what this and lack of English speaking skills has to do with AFCI''S.

From what were told the State did not find them reliable enough to adopt the NEC as written so they have at each code cycle come up with their own amendments. The 6' circuit extension and replacement AFCI rules have been removed from the current NJ requirments and it has nothing to with literacy. Laborer's have been trying to get in on electrical work for decades here in NJ mostly with running conduit along the highways. As far as I know they have been denied every time unless they have an electrical contractor license and a state business permit.

I don't know about California but regarding the rest of his comments unless I see some documentation stating otherwise they're baseless here in NJ.

 

[curt swartz]

See post #4

Dennis suggested using 2-pole DF breakers. My reply was they don't make them.

Your rambling about unskilled laborers has nothing to do with my comment..

 

[ramsy]

A bit unclear what you mean in post #4. Do you mean use an AFCI breaker and GFCI receps?

My service work must comply with replacement code 406.4(D), which doesn't require protection at the first outlet or fuse box.

While I can get most kitchen plug replacements pass inspection with a dual function outlet, for future outlet replacements I prefer as close to the fuse box as possible.

 

[electrofelon]

We can agree to disagree on how removing AFCI's also removes barriers to entry for shops run by laborers.

My opinion is based on local observation only, and may not happen everywhere.

In my State of CA, since Journeymen Wireman (JW) certification is only required for employees of Licensed C10 Electricians, its mostly General Contractors (GC) and owner builders running jobs with laborers.

Most rope-pulling is much easier to pass inspection, than properly operate with AFCI's. In the case of tenant improvement, it was also my experience apprenticing with a C10, who worked with GC shops run by laborers.

Still not totally clear on what is going on. So essentially inexperienced people are doing electrical work and can't get AFCI's to hold, so CA removed the AFCI requirements? If so, that seems absurd, even though I am no fan of AFCI.

 

[ramsy]

..Your rambling about unskilled laborers has nothing to do with my comment..

Post #4 is about DF outlet devices, nothing else mentioned there.

Curt, Im not picking on illiterate people who can't read, but you're not paying attention in class today.

 

[ramsy]

Still not totally clear on what is going on. So essentially inexperienced people are doing electrical work and can't get AFCI's to hold, so CA removed the AFCI requirements? If so, that seems absurd, even though I am no fan of AFCI.

Class is over for the day. If you're not getting It come back tomorrow.

 

[electrofelon]

Class is over for the day. If you're not getting It come back tomorrow.

Post #4 is about DF outlet devices, nothing else mentioned there.

Curt, Im not picking on illiterate people who can't read, but you're not paying attention in class today.

Ok fine, Curt and I will go to the principal's office, sorry for goofing off in class

 

[McLintock]

So if “all kitchen outlets and devices” need to be AFCI protected, does a range need to be? Because it’s a kitchen outlet right?

AFCI on everything in the house is a bit over the top and making the price go up and up. Although I try to follow the Code it’s not so much safety, but about money


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

 

[electrofelon]

I am nearing the completion of a project where my electrician has run (1) 12-2, and (1) 12-3 to the kitchen island. The island has the garbage disposal, dishwasher, and (2) outlets. It's our upstanding that everything needs to be both AFCI, and GFCI, and on separate breakers. The issue is that we cannot install all 3 on separate AFCI breakers with just the 2 neutrals without the AFCIs tripping. The easy answer s to run another neutral, but of course the conduit is compromised under the slab, and the flooring is complete. Is there anyway we can make this set up legal without having to run a third neutral? Any advise would be appreciated.

Here are some solutions:

Just use GFCI receps and a DP AFCI on the multiwire, or just abandon the third circuit and put the dish disposal together and the two receps together. I would typically just run two circuits for these things.

 

[electrofelon]

So if “all kitchen outlets and devices” need to be AFCI protected, does a range need to be? Because it’s a kitchen outlet right?

AFCI on everything in the house is a bit over the top and making the price go up and up. Although I try to follow the Code it’s not so much safety, but about money


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

Have you read 210.12(a)?

A) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms.......

 

[McLintock]

Yes I understand that, but why one and not the other, if it is for safety we should do both right?

The problem one may have with a dishwasher arcing could also happen with a range


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

 

[electrofelon]

Yes I understand that, but why one and not the other, if it is for safety we should do both right?

The problem one may have with a dishwasher arcing could also happen with a range


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”

Of you are looking for logic and consistency with AFCI''S in their use and how they were implemented, you won't find it

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis suggested using 2-pole DF breakers. My reply was they don't make them.

Your rambling about unskilled laborers has nothing to do with my comment..

You may be right. I thought I remember that they were made. So the solution is still easy--- dp afci with gfci receptacles.... as mentioned already

 

[kwired]

Of you are looking for logic and consistency with AFCI''S in their use and how they were implemented, you won't find it

And most recent changes for GFCI requirements is becoming that way. Kind of started in about 2008 or 2011 when they ran out of legitimate ideas where changes needed to be made yet must have thought they had to make at least some changes every code cycle.

 

[kwired]

To answer OP - since 2 pole dual function is not something available for the most part, why not just use a single pole DF 20 for both dishwasher and disposer? Code wise if both are cord and plug connected it is legal if both have a rating of 10 amps or less, which most do.

You still have an extra conductor to make it a MWBC down the road if absolutely necessary. Reality is even if the DW is pulling 13 amps and you turned on the disposer for only 15-30 seconds, you likely are not tripping breaker, time curve to trip will be much longer than that, it just needs to be able to handle starting for the most part.