2020 NEC requirement for outdoor disconnect on 1 or two family dwelling units.

[don_resqcapt19]

jusme123
The power utilities already have a tizzy when we pull a meter or cut their drip loops and now you want to put a switch for use by someone other than their employees in their meter's enclosure? I suspect you are trying to cause a mass extinction of power utility lawyers and managers from stress induced heart attacks.

--
Tom Horne

Meter Main assemblies have been a common installation for a long time. The actual meter part of the assembly has a separate cover and is sealed just like the cover on a stand alone meter is.

 

[kwired]

Meter Main assemblies have been a common installation for a long time. The actual meter part of the assembly has a separate cover and is sealed just like the cover on a stand alone meter is.

I second your response, we are talking about a switch in separate compartment from unmetered supply conductors. Something already pretty common in many places to begin with.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I second your response, we are talking about a switch in separate compartment from unmetered supply conductors. Something already pretty common in many places to begin with.

That can only be done here when that switch is required by the utility and remains under their control with their seals on the cover. I would doubt our utilities would permit it to be installed to comply with the rule in 230.85.

 

[kwired]

That can only be done here when that switch is required by the utility and remains under their control with their seals on the cover. I would doubt our utilities would permit it to be installed to comply with the rule in 230.85.

You have no "meter-mains" in your area? Meter is in it's own sealed compartment in the cabinet. Main breaker is unlocked, unsealed and generally was also considered the service disconnecting means, but 2020 and the emergency disconnect rule now it possibly can just be considered a switch for use as that emergency disconnect in some applications.

 

[retirede]

You have no "meter-mains" in your area? Meter is in it's own sealed compartment in the cabinet. Main breaker is unlocked, unsealed and generally was also considered the service disconnecting means, but 2020 and the emergency disconnect rule now it possibly can just be considered a switch for use as that emergency disconnect in some applications.

In my county, every REC service to a farmhouse has one of those on the pole.

 

[kwired]

In my county, every REC service to a farmhouse has one of those on the pole.

same around here, and some the villages served by rural POCO's get the same. This for 200 amp single phase for certain, some 400 amp single phase installs, and some 200 amp three phase installs.

If not a meter - main many those still have a meter with a disconnect directly below it on the pole. Used to be fused disconnects now most new ones are non fused.

 

[Olesailorman]

The idea that others could turn off power to a home seems real until people get used to the outside disconnect and then forget about it.

I have not seen locks on even one out of a hundred services with a meter/main and no one has ever complained that their power has been turned off by others for any reason.

As an inner city property manager and landlord, it strikes me that the NEC code should not make an external shut off an absolute requirement. I've had houses with such a disconnect and pranksters did indeed flip it off. The lock clasp on those switch or breaker boxes are so flimsy anyone can force the lock with just a screw driver.

I can see being sued if one of my tenants is on a respirator or an oxygen generator.

In another case where I have a house within one block of the ocean, salt air corrosion has made me replace the external box and or main breaker multiple times.

Safety of emergency personnel? I've seen them smash and pull meters in seconds.

 

[paulcoulston]

This kind of stuff irks me no end. As soon as a new code cycle is even mentioned instructors go woah, I need teach to it. You are on the the 2014 NEC AS AMENDED. How about focusing on making your class proficient with that code instead of confusing them with something they may not see until years from now if ever? Geeze, some states are still on the 2008. I'm on the 14. I couldn't care less about the 17 and I'll probably be retired before the 20.

As to your question, pretty much the same principle applies. Don't expect suppliers and manufacturers to gear up with this stuff when demand for it might be 5 years from now, if ever.

-Hal

Hello Hal

I was thinking just like you UNTIL September 1st. On that day I met the local AHJ at a kitchen for a final. He informed me that TODAY the NEC 2020 went into effect ! Wow I said I received nothing from the State ! We were on the 2014. I said what about 2017, we totally skipped it !! Of course I purchased $$$ of NEC 2017 material for myself and my son who is a apprentice. I did receive an email from the state later in that week to inform me. I obtained my License in 1989 on the NEC 1987 ( last year for the small size book ). In the state of Delaware since 1987 we NEVER skipped a whole edition.



Paul

 

[kwired]

Hello Hal

I was thinking just like you UNTIL September 1st. On that day I met the local AHJ at a kitchen for a final. He informed me that TODAY the NEC 2020 went into effect ! Wow I said I received nothing from the State ! We were on the 2014. I said what about 2017, we totally skipped it !! Of course I purchased $$$ of NEC 2017 material for myself and my son who is a apprentice. I did receive an email from the state later in that week to inform me. I obtained my License in 1989 on the NEC 1987 ( last year for the small size book ). In the state of Delaware since 1987 we NEVER skipped a whole edition.



Paul

You mentioned you were doing a final inspection, hopefully like many places the code that applies to that project is the code that was in effect at time the permit was filed.

 

[4x4dually]

In my county, every REC service to a farmhouse has one of those on the pole.

I'm glad you brought that up. I've read this whole thread waiting to post this question. Is this REC provided meter/main with a 200A breaker mounted on the power pole considered the outside emergency disconnecting means? Say it is 100' or 200' from service entrance to the residence. Still considered an emergency disconnect means? Forgive a newb if it is printed somewhere and I just haven't found it yet.

 

[shortcircuit2]

I'm glad you brought that up. I've read this whole thread waiting to post this question. Is this REC provided meter/main with a 200A breaker mounted on the power pole considered the outside emergency disconnecting means? Say it is 100' or 200' from service entrance to the residence. Still considered an emergency disconnect means? Forgive a newb if it is printed somewhere and I just haven't found it yet.

100-200 feet is not good practice for an emergency disco. Unless the local fire department is aware of the location in your senario...they won't find it under emergency response conditions.

There is a proposal for 2023 to have the EM Disco "within sight" which is no more that 50-feet and also within sight.

 

[kwired]

100-200 feet is not good practice for an emergency disco. Unless the local fire department is aware of the location in your senario...they won't find it under emergency response conditions.

There is a proposal for 2023 to have the EM Disco "within sight" which is no more that 50-feet and also within sight.

Who says they will find it if it is on the house in some situations? Landscaping, plants and decorations often hide such things. IMO on a pole will usually be easier to find.

 

[4x4dually]

100-200 feet is not good practice for an emergency disco. Unless the local fire department is aware of the location in your senario...they won't find it under emergency response conditions.

There is a proposal for 2023 to have the EM Disco "within sight" which is no more that 50-feet and also within sight.

Agreed; however, in this area, all fire fighters are volunteer and 9 out of 10 of them have the same service as I do at their residence. I was just curious if it got into specifics. I'm assuming the "code" means "on" the external surface of the dwelling, not across the yard on a pole.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is the section that describes an unattached structure. The problem is what does outside the structure mean. It could mean on another building but I don't think that is the intent. Perhaps that will be cleared up in 2023

225.32 Location.

The disconnecting means shall be installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors. For the purposes of this section, the requirements in 230.6 shall be utilized.
Exception No. 1:
For installations under single management, where documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection, and where the installation is monitored by qualified individuals, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.
Exception No. 2:
For buildings or other structures qualifying under Article 685, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.
Exception No. 3:
For towers or poles used as lighting standards, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.
Exception No. 4:
For poles or similar structures used only for support of signs installed in accordance with Article 600, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises.

 

[4x4dually]

Thank you, Dennis. Looks like it is expected where the service entrance is located or close to it. Probably not gonna get away with using the pole it appears to be 100% compliant.

 

[kwired]

Thank you, Dennis. Looks like it is expected where the service entrance is located or close to it. Probably not gonna get away with using the pole it appears to be 100% compliant.

Art 225 Part II is for separate structures supplied by a feeder or branch circuit. There is no service disconnect in the building in question as it is supplied via another structure and not directly buy the utility. The rules however are pretty similar to where/how a service disconnect would be located (230 part VI).

230.85 (the part that requires the "emergency disconnect") only says shall be in readily accessible outdoor location. No mention of proximity to the dwelling. As is in 2020, disconnect on a pole even if 200' away complies with that wording.

 

[4x4dually]

Art 225 Part II is for separate structures supplied by a feeder or branch circuit. There is no service disconnect in the building in question as it is supplied via another structure and not directly buy the utility. The rules however are pretty similar to where/how a service disconnect would be located (230 part VI).

230.85 (the part that requires the "emergency disconnect") only says shall be in readily accessible outdoor location. No mention of proximity to the dwelling. As is in 2020, disconnect on a pole even if 200' away complies with that wording.

This is why hate the code book. I can understand how the electrons move and all that crap....but my God the code is convoluted. I'm trying like heck to study and understand more and more of it but Lord. I'd have a better chance understanding my wife on a daily basis. LMAO

 

[Rick 0920]

This kind of stuff irks me no end. As soon as a new code cycle is even mentioned instructors go woah, I need teach to it. You are on the the 2014 NEC AS AMENDED. How about focusing on making your class proficient with that code instead of confusing them with something they may not see until years from now if ever? Geeze, some states are still on the 2008. I'm on the 14. I couldn't care less about the 17 and I'll probably be retired before the 20.

As to your question, pretty much the same principle applies. Don't expect suppliers and manufacturers to gear up with this stuff when demand for it might be 5 years from now, if ever.

-Hal

I'm in North Florida as well. Duval County is still under 2017 Code but will be adopting 2020 this year. Other surrounding counties are currently in 2020 so it is actually best that we teach these changes.