208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

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mikiej52

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Virginia Beach VA
How does one utilize a GFCI Breaker on a hot tub with no neutral connection? I have a customer who just replaced his old 4 wire hot tub with a new 3 wire unit. Since there is no way to connect the neutral from the GFCI breaker to the unit, I say you don't need a GFCI breaker.. Any suggestions?
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

Cap the neutral wire at the unit. it is not used. The GFCI, however, is still needed.
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

Does a GFCI breaker provide protection when a neutral is not used. Do the sensors (in the gfci breaker)work between the 2 hot wires? Do you even connect the white wire off the breaker to the buss? Seems like a code requirement that may not be effective!
MHJ
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

Always connect the white wire from the GFCI breaker to the panel neutral bar.

However the GFCI will work without a neutral on the load side.

All a GFCI cares is the current that goes 'out' of the sensor comes back 'in' to the sensor.

If you only use the two hots and some current does not return it will trip.
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

OK Mr Badger, then if I get nuisance tripping, I will have to take the breaker out of the circuit to keep the tub operating.
Seems to me that it will be just a gamble on using the breaker. Say 50/50, and maybe some very unnecessary labor. I know of many applications where the GFCI didn't work on a hot tub and it was done away with.....
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

I do not know what you are getting at.

If the application is required to have a GFCI (I am not familiar with Hot tub requirements) you can not remove it just because the GFCI is tripping.

If you have nuisance tripping I can only think of three remedies

1)Bad GFCI. Replace it.

2)Branch Circuit wiring faulty. Fix it.

3)Hot Tub Malfunctioning. Fix it.

It has been my experience that GFCIs trip because they are doing what they are supposed to.

Your scaring the heck out of me with talk of eliminating a GFCI just because it is tripping. :eek:
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

mikiej52,

Seems to me that it will be just a gamble on using the breaker. Say 50/50, and maybe some very unnecessary labor. I know of many applications where the GFCI didn't work on a hot tub and it was done away with.....
Click to expand...
All due respect, what the heck are you talking about??? I think you need to brush up on some of the fundamentals of GFCI operation.

Do not, under any circumstances, remove the GFCI from the hot tub. As Bob said, if it's tripping, then you need to find out why and fix it!
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

I asked a question very similar to this about a month ago. I was installing a 240v ckt to a motor for a pump on a gold fish pond. Hurk27 gave me a lesson on GFCI for 220v circuits. I was hung up because the manufacturer was wanting a "neutral" connection on the center lug of the breaker and I didn't have a "neutral" on the 220v ckt. and wasn't going to connect the egc to it; Maybe you can find it in the archives under gold fish pond. It was very well written.
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

mikiej52,
Your list your occupation as a Master Electrician ,but don't understand the purpose or fundamentals of a GFCI breaker? :eek: Stay with the HVAC.
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

What exactially does Master Electrician mean in your State? Not to be rude or condensending but, shouldn't a Master Electrician be competent enough to handle a basic hot tub install. And not understanding basic GFCI operation? I think the word Master is streaching it a little, don't you?

People die because this.......
if I get nuisance tripping, I will have to take the breaker out
Click to expand...
DON'T DO IT - KEEP THE GFCI BREAKER
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

Allot like having an afci circuit that trips when a load is applied and instead of finding the ground that is touching the neutral,just use an arc fault repair kit a regular breaker!!!Kind of like using a ground to replace a neutral when damage occurs to the cable assy.But this is in a hostile enviorment.GFCI has its purpose,sure it will work but :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

mikiej52
OK Mr Badger, then if I get nuisance tripping, I will have to take the breaker out of the circuit to keep the tub operating.
Seems to me that it will be just a gamble on using the breaker. Say 50/50, and maybe some very unnecessary labor. I know of many applications where the GFCI didn't work on a hot tub and it was done away with.....
Click to expand...
Im just an apprentice, and i know better than doing something like this(removing gfci breaker).
This is why all states should take over testing, so nepotism can't get you a master's or journeymans license without having the proper training.Glad i haven't ever had to work with a journeyman training me like this.Seems like noone ever wants to fix a problem just band-aid the symptoms.
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

Personally I think Cutting down Mike is uncalled for, Can we act like adults here?
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

Good point Joe.
I have taken many state and local test and I don't remember any that had any question's on it that requires knowlage on how a gfci works! so unless you get this info in you schooling there are some out here that havent had the chance to learn this. So I think it is good that we can share this info with them.
 
Re: 208/240 Hot Tub W/no neutral

Bottom line is if it calls for gfci protection we must provide it.To do otherwise we might end up in court on both criminal and civil charges.GFCI work fine unless there is leakage and if so fix it.DO NOT REMOVE IT AS A FAST REPAIR.We are professionals lets act like such.I can deal with your skill level on how they work but not the cure of regular breaker.If the right fix is beyond you then seek some help either here on this forum or another electrician.
 
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