210.52(C)(1) proposal for 2011

[dnem]

Everybody has "pet peeves" and one of mine is in 210.52(C)(1). . The trigger for a counter plug requirement is 12" or wider but the 24" measurement says "so that no point along the wall line is more than 24".

This means that a counter space with an open end is treated differently than the exact same counter that has a side return wall. . The counter space is identical but the requirement is different. . The area used for countertop appliances is based on counter space not wall line. . This is in contrast to non-counter areas that have more usable area as wall line increases, 210.52(A)(1).

And then there's the counter that runs up to a panel divider wall for a refrigerator. . It is a "wall" but actually is only a sheet of thin wood in a frame. . I know cabinet dividers are not considered ?walls? by 400.8(2) & 422.16(B)(2)(4).

It has happened a number of times on an inspection that a huge island or a very long peninsula has only one plug while a small countertop a few feet away has to have 2 plugs just because it has a return wall next to it. . If it had an open side edge or a refrigerator panel on the side edge, code would require only one plug. . And yet I can tell that the monster island will obviously have the bulk of the countertop appliances.

Thruout the 2008 ROP I read over and over again the Panel Statement: Recommendation ?described is a design issue and consideration.? . This statement is used even when there is no design issue recommended but only a recommendation that the panel doesn?t agree with.

I believe the spacing requirements of 210.52(C)(1) show an attempt to design rather than addressing a legitimate safety or fire concern. . I?m not sure exactly what the requirement should be. . I?m only sure that the current one doesn?t make sense.

Anybody agree with me and have a suggestion for a change ?

David

 

[charlie b]

Sorry, David, but I do not understand your point. You lost me here:

This means that a counter space with an open end is treated differently than the exact same counter that has a side return wall. . The counter space is identical but the requirement is different.

Perhaps you are thinking that when, in this article, it says ?no point along the wall line,? that you have to measure the ?wall line? at floor level? If you have a kitchen countertop that is neither island nor peninsula, then it touches a wall. You start measuring the 12 inches (and the 24 inches) at the left-hand edge of the countertop, and you measure along the line at which the countertop touches the wall. So it does not matter if the right edge is a wall of its own, or whether the right edge is an open space reserved for the fridge. You stop measuring the 12 or 24 inch spaces when you run out of countertop.

 

[JohnE]

David,

I guess you count the side wall for measuring your counter space. There was a discussion regarding that here recently. Most of us do not consider that to count.

I'd personally like to see the island/ peninsula requirement disappear. The design of many islands makes the use of an appliance impractical. On the other hand, like you said, some designs indicate several appliances may be used. In that case they can choose to put several receptacles. I don't see why an island should be designed around a required receptacle. A lot of them have overhangs on 3 sides with drawers on the fourth because that is what the owner wants. If they want to use their island in a certain fashion, and feel they will never need power, I feel they should be allowed to.

 

[stickboy1375]

I agree, receptacles on an island is more of a hazard then not having one...

 

[ryan_618]

I agree, receptacles on an island is more of a hazard then not having one...

Not if you don't use it.

 

[stickboy1375]

Which is actually why I feel the way I do, I don't have a problem if a backsplash exists, I just can't live with a cord hanging off the edge of a counter top... but it's just my opinion... not trying to pick a fight... :smile:

 

[dnem]

Perhaps you are thinking that when, in this article, it says ?no point along the wall line,? that you have to measure the ?wall line? at floor level? If you have a kitchen countertop that is neither island nor peninsula, then it touches a wall. You start measuring the 12 inches (and the 24 inches) at the left-hand edge of the countertop, and you measure along the line at which the countertop touches the wall. So it does not matter if the right edge is a wall of its own, or whether the right edge is an open space reserved for the fridge. You stop measuring the 12 or 24 inch spaces when you run out of countertop.

?Perhaps you are thinking that when, in this article, it says ?no point along the wall line,? that you have to measure the ?wall line? at floor level??
Floor level or counter level, either way, doesn?t matter. . You?ll get the same measurement.

?You stop measuring the 12 or 24 inch spaces when you run out of countertop.?
Is that what 210.52(C)(1) actually says ? . Does it say counter width or does it say wall line ?

I guess you count the side wall for measuring your counter space. There was a discussion regarding that here recently. Most of us do not consider that to count.

?Most of us do not consider that to count.?
I agree, but I?ve been in a number of legalistic conversations on this website that debate back and forth based on exact precise wording. . Take a look at this part of a conversation

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=84318&page=5

or how about this page

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=82874&page=5

notice my last post on that page

So the question is:
Are there legalistic inspectors out there that are enforcing 210.52(C)(1) in the exact wording that it?s written which is wall line ? . Wall line and counter width are only the same measurement if there are not return walls on either side of the counter.

David

 

[dnem]

I'd personally like to see the island/ peninsula requirement disappear. The design of many islands makes the use of an appliance impractical. On the other hand, like you said, some designs indicate several appliances may be used. In that case they can choose to put several receptacles. I don't see why an island should be designed around a required receptacle. A lot of them have overhangs on 3 sides with drawers on the fourth because that is what the owner wants. If they want to use their island in a certain fashion, and feel they will never need power, I feel they should be allowed to.

I agree, receptacles on an island is more of a hazard then not having one...

The problem with totally eliminating the island plug requirement is that future access to add a plug is frequently difficult or impossible without damaging a finished surface. . In a first floor kitchen with a drywall finished basement ceiling, it?s pretty close to impossible. . Even in an unfinished basement, access to the existing plug can be difficult and costly to the homeowner that hires out the work.

If the homeowner changes their mind after the drywall phase of the build and decides to use countertop appliances on the island, there?s no power. . Or when the house is sold, the next owner might have different cooking habits. . Will there be drywall removed and a new run installed to the island or will the extension cord across the kitchen walkway make its appearance ? . Installations that encourage an extension cord across the walkway is a safety issue not a design issue.

What I do think is a safe compromise that provides safety without designing the kitchen, would be a requirement to have a GFCI load connected Romex run from an installed counter GFCI up into the island and terminated under wirenuts in a blank covered box screwed to the inside of the island cabinet.

Changing the subject:
Now how about removing the words ?wall line? from 250.52(C)(1) ?
Any suggestions ?

David

 

[JohnE]

What I do think is a safe compromise that provides safety without designing the kitchen, would be a requirement to have a GFCI load connected Romex run from an installed counter GFCI up into the island and terminated under wirenuts in a blank covered box screwed to the inside of the island cabinet.



David

I have made a similar sugggestion in some past posts. I worded it something like "provisions made to allow for receptacle to be added ..." or something like that. That could be a romex, conduit, whatever.

 

[charlie b]

Floor level or counter level, either way, doesn?t matter. . You?ll get the same measurement.

?You stop measuring the 12 or 24 inch spaces when you run out of countertop.?
Is that what 210.52(C)(1) actually says ? . Does it say counter width or does it say wall line ?

Are there legalistic inspectors out there that are enforcing 210.52(C)(1) in the exact wording that it?s written which is wall line ? .

Bottom line: You don?t get to read 210.52(C)(1) without first passing through 210.52(C). That article is all about ?Countertops.? When you get to sub-paragraph (1), and when you start reading about measuring along the ?wall line,? it is necessarily talking about the ?wall line? associated with the countertop. If you want to know about ?wall lines? in locations that have no countertops, then go to 210.52(A).

 

[dnem]

Floor level or counter level, either way, doesn’t matter. . You’ll get the same measurement.

Bottom line: You don’t get to read 210.52(C)(1) without first passing through 210.52(C). That article is all about “Countertops.” When you get to sub-paragraph (1), and when you start reading about measuring along the “wall line,” it is necessarily talking about the “wall line” associated with the countertop. If you want to know about “wall lines” in locations that have no countertops, then go to 210.52(A).

“If you want to know about “wall lines” in locations that have no countertops …..”
I’m very surprised that you would think that this thread, or any comment on it so far, is about enforcing countertop plug spacing where there are no countertops !

Measure the counter top along every single inch that it is in contact with the wall. . Not just in contact with the back wall behind the counter but also the side wall that is also in contact with the counter top. . If you can imagine that same area along the floor, or if you remove the cabinet from its position and physically measure the floor where the cabinet was installed, you will find that the measurements are the same.

My comment about 210.52(A)(1) was to show a contrast. . It was obvious that I wasn’t advocating 210.52(C)(1) counter plug spacing thruout the house.

This means that a counter space with an open end is treated differently than the exact same counter that has a side return wall. . The counter space is identical but the requirement is different. . The area used for countertop appliances is based on counter space not wall line. . This is in contrast to non-counter areas that have more usable area as wall line increases, 210.52(A)(1).

David

 

[dnem]

What I do think is a safe compromise that provides safety without designing the kitchen, would be a requirement to have a GFCI load connected Romex run from an installed counter GFCI up into the island and terminated under wirenuts in a blank covered box screwed to the inside of the island cabinet.

I have made a similar sugggestion in some past posts. I worded it something like "provisions made to allow for receptacle to be added ..." or something like that. That could be a romex, conduit, whatever.

“romex, conduit, whatever”
Yeah, Chapter 3 wiring method

For a 210.52(C)(5)X condition2 situation where there is no backsplash this could be an additional option. . Requirement to have a GFCI load connected chapter 3 wiring method run up into the island and contained in a box secured under the island counter inside the cabinet with either an installed device of some type or a blank plate cover. . This would be another option in addition to the provision for a below counter plug as already allowed by 210.52(C)(5)X.

David