210.52-- Code Violation?

[wireguy8169]

Where's the Sink

Where's the Sink

Depending on the lay out that would showif it were a violation , if say there was a double sink directly infront of that window that would take up enough space that when recep. were put in on either side you would have coverd the code requirements, well that is in the spirit of the question originally asked.

 

[infinity]

That would be a violation -- article 210.52(C)(5) except 2. specifically allows this for islands and peninsulas.

You're correct. I forgot that it only applied to those specific conditions.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Let's look at a purely hypothetical kitchen arrangement. Let's say we have 10' of cabinet up against the outside wall. Let's also say that the refrigerator is on the right end of the kitchen and the 10' of cabinets begin where the refrigerator ends. There is one 10' window over the entire kitchen cabinet length that goes from the counter top height to the ceiling. Sink is in the middle of this arrangement.

Now according to the author there is no wall space so no receptacles are needed. So now I have a kitchen with no receptacles-- forget about the bad design. Code requires 2 SABC but since there is no wall I don't need to install them.

Should this pass? This is where I think the author is off on his logic.

 

[macmikeman]

Should this pass? This is where I think the author is off on his logic.

Logic? Wait a minute, were talking about homeowners and general contractors, what does logic have to do with it??? Somebody created a white out monster when they showed macmikeman the hidey text trick. I hope you realize that....

 

[kwired]

Tell them you will have to use an exposed wiring method to get the required receptacles, or hang cord pendants from the ceiling and they will make modifications to the structure to allow you to use concealed methods. Plugmold or power poles would still get the job done. Has anyone seen them with TR receptacles?

Make this very clear at rough in time so you do not piss them off as much as you would at finish time.

 

[hurk27]

Tell them you will have to use an exposed wiring method to get the required receptacles, or hang cord pendants from the ceiling and they will make modifications to the structure to allow you to use concealed methods. Plugmold or power poles would still get the job done. Has anyone seen them with TR receptacles?

Make this very clear at rough in time so you do not piss them off as much as you would at finish time.

even though the exception is only for islands and peninsulas or handicap persons, I think I would not have a problem with getting an inspector to allow Plugmold on the front of the cabinet if there was no wall space to put a receptacle in. but I would want a warning in writing to the home owner the danger of having receptacles in a kitchen where children can pull appliances off onto them, like I do with islands and peninsulas. some of our inspection departments in our area also require this for islands and peninsulas.
why I have no idea because in Indiana you can't sign off on liability, but at least they been warned:roll:

 

[kwired]

even though the exception is only for islands and peninsulas or handicap persons, I think I would not have a problem with getting an inspector to allow Plugmold on the front of the cabinet if there was no wall space to put a receptacle in. but I would want a warning in writing to the home owner the danger of having receptacles in a kitchen where children can pull appliances off onto them, like I do with islands and peninsulas. some of our inspection departments in our area also require this for islands and peninsulas.
why I have no idea because in Indiana you can't sign off on liability, but at least they been warned:roll:

The NEC does not care about cost or appearance - those are design issues. Your design needs to incorporate NEC requirements.

The photo in post #1 - if receptacles are required in the area of the bay window, there are ways of putting them there. If there are no requirements for receptacles there you can still put them there, and I would suggest at least one to the owner. Many people love to put holiday decorations with lighting or other powered equipment in places like this. At this stage of construction they are dreaming of what they will put there someday but many never even give a thought of where they are going to plug things in.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So where would you put the receptacle if the counter came up to the window sill?

 

[MikeS]

Put a sillite in the cabinet face left & right of the sink or tuck a multioutlet strip under the countertop lip. It then becomes the cabinetmaker's problem to design around the electrical. Push the problem to the next guy!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Put a sillite in the cabinet face left & right of the sink or tuck a multioutlet strip under the countertop lip. It then becomes the cabinetmaker's problem to design around the electrical. Push the problem to the next guy!

Mike-- you can't do that by code. Sure most inspectors will accept it but it is technically a violation.

 

[kwired]

So where would you put the receptacle if the counter came up to the window sill?

Tombstone type receptacle, power pole, pendant, I may be able find a place to fit plugmold, make my own surface to mount something on. These may not be desirable but would work. Like I said before, this problem needs to be addressed at rough in with owner, or even earlier if possible. It is much easeir for all involved to make changes at this time than it is after the cabinets and counters are already installed.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree this needs to be addressed beforehand and whenever I run into it it is dealt with on the rough in so there are no surprises for anyone. It is not always that easy to comply with code given a design that is not user friendly. For many years I use to go to the local architects and give them a print out of requirements for kitchens. Most have learned-- it's the out-of-town architects that may create problems but nothing I can't handle ahead of time.

Again I just don't see because there is no wall that the recep. aren't required. I see a window as a part of a wall- they just need to design it better.

 

[glene77is]

Denis,

I think I observe a plumbing pipe on the right edge of the area.
Does it extend to the plumbing pipe on the right,
and then across to the plumbing pipe on the left ?
If so, would there be any room for outlet boxes installed on the wall directly behind the full length of this large kitchen window ?

To me, practically speaking, there needs to be some outlet boxes in this area,
but the critical analysis of the NEC text does not require it (as you have pointed out).

Surely, the EC will be called back to add receptacles in the window area !

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I would guess those are studor vents, but I am assuming the cabinet goes to the window sill height. The receptacle cannot be installed in the bay window face up as that could be considered countertop. You may be able to use a pop up style recep., however I have seen designs where the window does not go back as a bay window does.

 

[jxofaltrds]

The plumbing is vented at the right side of the picture.

The cabinets 'may' have blanks, spacers between the cabinets but I doubt it.

 

[glene77is]

I would guess those are studor vents, but I am assuming the cabinet goes to the window sill height. The receptacle cannot be installed in the bay window face up as that could be considered countertop. You may be able to use a pop up style recep., however I have seen designs where the window does not go back as a bay window does.

Dennis,
"Pop-Up" is a Pedestal, right? Sits up like a lighthouse.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Dennis,
"Pop-Up" is a Pedestal, right? Sits up like a lighthouse.

Yes sir. :grin:

This is the most common one I know of but I believe it is cord and plug so I would not accept that as a permanent install- it would be like putting a plug strip in. They do make some that are rated for kitchens and are direct wired.

 

[pfalcon]

There is a wall line as evidenced by looking above and below the window. The wall is not broken at the floor line by openings. Therefore by code there is a wall present.

The extra space granted by the window sill is not automatically counter space. If they run the counter back then it can become counterspace.

So: If they do not run the counter material into the sill there is not enough room behind the sink because it is less than 12".

If they do run the counter material onto the sill then they will need the outlet.

Penny, penny, there ya go.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

So: If they do not run the counter material into the sill there is not enough room behind the sink because it is less than 12".

If they do run the counter material onto the sill then they will need the outlet.

I had a job where there was a window that was about an inch higher than the counter. Art. 406.4 will not let us put a receptacle face up in the counter but I used a sillite receptacle (pictured in post 11) and install it in the window sill and it worked just fine for code.

 

[pfalcon]

I had a job where there was a window that was about an inch higher than the counter. Art. 406.4 will not let us put a receptacle face up in the counter but I used a sillite receptacle (pictured in post 11) and install it in the window sill and it worked just fine for code.

I was speaking to the requirement, but cross-tying another thread: Especially if I had a window as shown in the original picture, I would want an outlet available even if it wasn't strictly required.