210.8(A)(2)x2 / (5)x2 dedicated space

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dnem

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This is a question about what is / or should be required on a final residential inspection.

In a residential garage or basement, if I have a single plug by a sump pump or a duplex by a sump pump with a battery backup, I can easily see the dedicated space because the equipment is installed at the time of the final. But what about a situation where the equipment isn't installed at the time of final inspection and there are no electrical plans that show the equipment ?

Let me give you 3 examples, all of which I'm seeing in one development:

1) Empty garage with a single [in addition to a separate GFCI]. Square shaped garage with no cove areas that would be obvious for a dedicated space.
Is it enough for the contractor to verbally tell the inspector that a piece of equipment is coming at the time of move in ?
Is it reasonable for the inspector to ask that the receptacle cover be labeled with the name of the equipment since the equipment isn't there ?
Would you have a problem with the inspector requiring the receptacle cover be labeled with the name of the equipment since the equipment isn't there ?

2) Empty garage with a duplex [in addition to a separate GFCI]. Square shaped garage with no cove areas that would be obvious for a dedicated space.
Is it enough for the contractor to verbally tell the inspector that 2 pieces of equipment are coming at the time of move in ?
Is it reasonable for the inspector to ask that the receptacle cover be labeled with the name of the equipment since the equipment isn't there ?
Would you have a problem with the inspector requiring the receptacle cover be labeled with the name of the equipment since the equipment isn't there ?

3) Empty garage with a duplex. The required GFCI is loaded off of a basement GFCI so that one duplex is protected, the other is not, but visually there is no difference between the two plugs.
Is it enough for the contractor to verbally tell the inspector that 2 pieces of equipment are coming at the time of move in ?
Is it reasonable for the inspector to ask that the nonGFCI receptacle cover be labeled with the name of the equipment since the equipment isn't there ?
Would you have a problem with the inspector requiring the receptacle cover be labeled with the name of the equipment since the equipment isn't there ?

David
 
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IMHO if the plans show these pieces of equipment, there is not a problem. If not, put in GFCI. If the equipment won't work with GFCI, when equipment gets installed, it can always be replaced with standard duplex. :)
 
bphgravity said:
I look forward to these exceptions (possibly) being deleted in the 2008 NEC.
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I agree with Bryan, it will simplify this issue if the exceptions are deleted in the 2008 NEC.

Chris
 
David

The way that you asked the questions shows that you are trying to be fair.

Go ahead and enforce what you believe to be reasonable.

That said be aware that the BBS is 'very' likely to make an example of an inspector that is enforcing 'his' code and not the RCO.

BBS= Board of Building Standards; RCO= Residential Code of Ohio. For those not in Ohio.
 
I think the problem becomes, why would we insist on the homeowner moving their valuable appliances into the home before they actually move in?

If GFI protection has been provided for a receptacle in the garage, and there is a simplex somewhere else, I would ask you to pass it.

Beyond that, I'd expect to do some explaining if I had two appliances in a garage.

But, seriously, GFI's are not that expensive, so I would not expect someone to try to pull a fast one. But I could be very naive. :)
 
LarryFine said:
One more possibility: blank the box until it's needed.
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I like Larry's idea. Although it depends on what costs more, a GFCI receptacle or a call back after the owners move in?
 
The inspector has no idea what the homeowner will actually do with any space. At the time of inspection for this type of scenario, I would require the GFCI.
Labeling the receptacle would most likely have little effect for the homeowner, as we all know they will do what they want in their own home, once they pay the big bucks for it.

Remember, there will be a CO provided to the homeowner upon the final inspection, so the final should be final.
 
What about installing the single receptacle, only not hooking it up? Capping the wires behind the single would generate a warranty call when they try to plug in the freezer or what have you. Then the materials are on site. ;)

I'll just keep putting the single in. Generally, the sprinkler guys get their clock mounted before final, so I don't get into trouble too much. :)
 
infinity said:
I like Larry's idea. Although it depends on what costs more, a GFCI receptacle or a call back after the owners move in?
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Just roll the return trip into the price, even if you keep it a secret. Just say you're waiting to see what kind of plug the unit will have.
 
Thanks everyone for all of the responses.
For those of you that suggested an option that requires the contractor to return to the house, many of these contractors want an option that doesn't require them to do that.

There seems to be 2 kind of responses to these questions.

One

mpd said:
the appliances are there at final or the receptacle is GFI protected
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Two

georgestolz said:
I think the problem becomes, why would we insist on the homeowner moving their valuable appliances into the home before they actually move in?

If GFI protection has been provided for a receptacle in the garage, and there is a simplex somewhere else, I would ask you to pass it.

Beyond that, I'd expect to do some explaining if I had two appliances in a garage.

But, seriously, GFI's are not that expensive, so I would not expect someone to try to pull a fast one. But I could be very naive. :)
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For both types of replies.
For you inspectors, Would requiring the receptacles cover to be labeled, satisfy the restrictive language used in 210.8(A)(2)x2 ?
For you contractors, Would you balk at being required to label based on the fact that it's not a code requirement ?

I see that Pierre feels labeling can not be used in lieu of equipment on site.

Pierre C Belarge said:
The inspector has no idea what the homeowner will actually do with any space. At the time of inspection for this type of scenario, I would require the GFCI.
Labeling the receptacle would most likely have little effect for the homeowner, as we all know they will do what they want in their own home, once they pay the big bucks for it.

Remember, there will be a CO provided to the homeowner upon the final inspection, so the final should be final.
Click to expand...

David
 
georgestolz said:
I'd say it's not a bad option. A fifteen minute warranty issue shouldn't starve anybody.
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I beg to differ warranty calls eat the bottom line of a small profit tract home profit.Take a company that does over 2,000 homes a year and add a warranty call for each home.Is it a 15 min.call NO.That 15 min. is multiplied by 3 at least and that is if close by .The time to get there,the time to do the call and the time wasted that could have been done actually making money.So take that 15 min X 3 =45 X 2,000 homes divide by 60 and you have wasted 150 man hours.Now figure the cost of your man hours at lets be cheap $18.00/ hour that`s $2,700.00 gone and just for one warranty call.These are not figures pulled out of thin air but figures I have dealt with for years and when you consider the cost of materials today and the small profit margin made on SFR`S.Bottom line is the key to a companies existance.
 
dnem said:
For you contractors, Would you balk at being required to label based on the fact that it's not a code requirement ?
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No, I would understand it. I have labelled them in the past when I do something odd.

For example, when a humidifier is added to a furnace, in a pinch I will install a switch/duplex industrial cover on the four-square, and break the tabs on the duplex to kill one side. I label one "Off" and the other "Humidifier". Might be a touch cheesy, I'll admit.

Allen, that sounds convincing when you multiply it out over the course of a year. But how much profit was generated in those houses well above and beyond that $2700? If $2700 comes close to your profit, I'd say you're bidding too tight, IMO.

I'm not advocating policies that force a return, but I'd say if the required return was infrequent, then it's not that much to ask. If "every single house" has a single recep, maybe it's not a bad idea to get the GC to get the appliance in, at that rate, huh? :)
 
George all im saying is that with the residential market operating on a slim profit margin the only way to survive is by eliminating as many call backs as we can.Bottom line is the key to survival.But when a project is bid and prices are given for lets say a 800 home community and you have to add a gfci when the homeowner wants a freezer recep in the garage but its not there for the final.We have to supply the gfci device to get that final.We charge for a dedicated receptacle but when the bidding is done we have a set price if we incorporate the cost of a gfci device we are going to be the high bidder.Chances are we won`t get the project.Our inspectors had us label single non gfci receps appliance use only.But that is no longer an option.So what do we do ,loose the project and a builder or loose money by under bidding a recep that the builder is supplying for a home owners appliance that won`t be there at final.It`s a double edged sword.
 
allenwayne said:
George all im saying is that with the residential market operating on a slim profit margin the only way to survive is by eliminating as many call backs as we can.Bottom line is the key to survival.But when a project is bid and prices are given for lets say a 800 home community and you have to add a gfci when the homeowner wants a freezer recep in the garage but its not there for the final.We have to supply the gfci device to get that final.We charge for a dedicated receptacle but when the bidding is done we have a set price if we incorporate the cost of a gfci device we are going to be the high bidder.Chances are we won`t get the project.Our inspectors had us label single non gfci receps appliance use only.But that is no longer an option.So what do we do ,loose the project and a builder or loose money by under bidding a recep that the builder is supplying for a home owners appliance that won`t be there at final.It`s a double edged sword.
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It's sad that residential in our area has turned to low ball pricing.That is why i gave up doing them.How are these low ballers dealing with price of romex that goes up and up.Any bid made today will be wrong in the morning.
 
allenwayne said:
Our inspectors had us label single non gfci receps appliance use only.But that is no longer an option.
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Sounds like your local inspectors used to accept cover labeling instead of appliance on site at time of final, but now they've changed their minds.

allenwayne said:
..... a recep that the builder is supplying for a home owners appliance that won`t be there at final.It`s a double edged sword.
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So the inspectors stand is appliance on site at final, GFCI, or you fail the inspection ?

David
 
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