210.8, GFCI not within branch circuit

[brantmacga]

Just want to make sure I’m not missing anything.

For a commercial kitchen, is there any reason I can’t use a 225/3 enclosed circuit breaker with GFCI to protect multiple branch circuits within a panelboard?

Square D is the only manufacturer that makes 3-pole miniature GFCI breakers and the shortage is about to put the brakes on my work. Most recent gear shipment arrived without the 20 or so 3-pole GFCI’s needed and a note that said customer must source from elsewhere.

Probably need 300 or so breakers within the next 3/mo and they’re not going to be able to meet the demand. I haven’t even asked about stock on the enclosed breakers but I’d have to imagine it’s more likely I can get those.


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[Greentagger]

No reason other than possible nuisance tripping. Refer to 215.9.

 

[curt swartz]

Where do you get a 225 amp GFCI breaker?

Combining multiple pieces of equipment on a single GFCI is asking for trouble in my opinion. If cumulative leakage or even 1 piece of kitchen equipment causes nuisance tripping the entire kitchen is going to be shut down.

 

[augie47]

Where do you get a 225 amp GFCI breaker?

Combining multiple pieces of equipment on a single GFCI is asking for trouble in my opinion. If cumulative leakage or even 1 piece of kitchen equipment causes nuisance tripping the entire kitchen is going to be shut down.

Agree. I've seen that attempted two or three times and it's been a disaster for the reasons you state

 

[wwhitney]

Then the question is would it work well enough for a 3-4 month solution while supply chain issues work out and the proper breakers can be sourced?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[brantmacga]

Clearly it’s not the best solution. But if we can’t get breakers, we can’t get CO’s. The wheels can’t stop turning here.


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[don_resqcapt19]

This is covered in 215.9, but in the 2017 code, 215.9 was not matched up with 210.8(B), as the rule in 215 only permitted that in lieu of individual GFCI protection for receptacles supplied by 15 or 20 amp branch circuits.
The 2020 version of 215.9 caught up with the expansion of the GFCI requirements in 210.8.

 

[wwhitney]

At least with regards to 210.8, 215.9 seems unnecessary, as 210.8 does not specify that the GFCI protection be installed in the branch circuit. So even absent 215.9, it could be installed upstream in a feeder and comply with 210.8.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[don_resqcapt19]

At least with regards to 210.8, 215.9 seems unnecessary, as 210.8 does not specify that the GFCI protection be installed in the branch circuit. So even absent 215.9, it could be installed upstream in a feeder and comply with 210.8.

Cheers, Wayne

I agree, but 215.9 was added because not everyone reads it that way.

 

[hbiss]

But if we can’t get breakers, we can’t get CO’s. The wheels can’t stop turning here.

But given the circumstances the AHJ should be required to provide a temporary or conditional CO. We've done without GFCIs on those circuits until recently. What's the problem? They act like workers were dropping dead in the kitchens. And either way you are going to have to go back and remove all those regular breakers and swap them out. At such time the AHJ can then go back and re-inspect.

-Hal

 

[brantmacga]

But given the circumstances the AHJ should be required to provide a temporary or conditional CO. We've done without GFCIs on those circuits until recently. What's the problem? They act like workers were dropping dead in the kitchens. And either way you are going to have to go back and remove all those regular breakers and swap them out. At such time the AHJ can then go back and re-inspect.

-Hal

They won't do it. Have discussed with multiple AHJ's in multiple states, they're not willing to provide conditional CO's on commercial kitchens. And my customer isn't willing to stop construction projects due to shortages. "Figure it out" is all I hear.

 

[texie]

Where do you get a 225 amp GFCI breaker?

Combining multiple pieces of equipment on a single GFCI is asking for trouble in my opinion. If cumulative leakage or even 1 piece of kitchen equipment causes nuisance tripping the entire kitchen is going to be shut down.

I agree. I would not even consider it regardless of code allowed or not.

 

[texie]

They won't do it. Have discussed with multiple AHJ's in multiple states, they're not willing to provide conditional CO's on commercial kitchens. And my customer isn't willing to stop construction projects due to shortages. "Figure it out" is all I hear.

I think any AHJ that can't work with a business owner in these special times should be taken to task over this. Most AHJ's are completely out of touch, crave power and need their wings clipped every now and then by the business community. I now how it would go in my jurisdiction. The governor would call my boss and tell us to figure out a temporary solution and we are not going to stop business.

 

[ramsy]

They won't do it. Have discussed with multiple AHJ's in multiple states, they're not willing to provide conditional CO's on commercial kitchens. And my customer isn't willing to stop construction projects due to shortages. "Figure it out" is all I hear.

That is stressful. Any way to canabalize previous installs no longer in use, or check suppliers for equipment returns?

 

[brantmacga]

I agree. I would not even consider it regardless of code allowed or not.

the options are:

A) Find a way to satisfy GFCI requirements so the jobs can continue
B) send a couple dozen guys home and say, sorry, we just couldn't justify the risk of nuisance tripping.

what would you really do?

 

[texie]

the options are:

A) Find a way to satisfy GFCI requirements so the jobs can continue
B) send a couple dozen guys home and say, sorry, we just couldn't justify the risk of nuisance tripping.

what would you really do?

I think the cumulative leakage is a real problem. But even if just one appliance caused a trip it will be a real issue time wise to locate. It would create havoc in a busy kitchen. Also see post 13. In my view the NEC folks and bureaucrats acting as AHJs in many cases need a reality check. People need to fight back against all these idiots.

 

[hbiss]

the options are:

A) Find a way to satisfy GFCI requirements so the jobs can continue
B) send a couple dozen guys home and say, sorry, we just couldn't justify the risk of nuisance tripping.

what would you really do?

C) Tell the owner that you will temporarily provide regular breakers so the kitchen will be complete and functional and that now is the time to sic his lawyers on the AHJ to make sure he will have a CO in time for him to open.

What you are suggesting isn't a solution by any means.

-Hal

 

[romex jockey]

the options are:

A) Find a way to satisfy GFCI requirements so the jobs can continue
B) send a couple dozen guys home and say, sorry, we just couldn't justify the risk of nuisance tripping.

what would you really do?

exactly what you're doing, which in fact i have done myself, w/out issues

~RJ~

 

[Fred B]

the options are:

A) Find a way to satisfy GFCI requirements so the jobs can continue
B) send a couple dozen guys home and say, sorry, we just couldn't justify the risk of nuisance tripping.

what would you really do?

I'm not clear as to the size of circuits requiring GFCI protection? What is the amperage rating of outlet or equipment you are trying to protect? Why it sounds you want a multi pole GFCI breaker? Is it for a specific peice of equipment?
We've used multiple blank face GFCI on 20A branch circuits at the point of origin (next to panel) to provide protection of individual circuits in absence of the GFCI breaker. It met the requirement for GFCI protection 210.8, but did require each circuit be run independently (no MWBC). It seems to me a workaround for 15 or 20A protection to get personnel protection, for all the reasons already stated by others, if owner not willing to allow supply chain to correct for shortages.

 

[ptonsparky]

I'm not clear as to the size of circuits requiring GFCI protection? What is the amperage rating of outlet or equipment you are trying to protect? Why it sounds you want a multi pole GFCI breaker? Is it for a specific peice of equipment?
We've used multiple blank face GFCI on 20A branch circuits at the point of origin (next to panel) to provide protection of individual circuits in absence of the GFCI breaker. It met the requirement for GFCI protection 210.8, but did require each circuit be run independently (no MWBC). It seems to me a workaround for 15 or 20A protection to get personnel protection, for all the reasons already stated by others, if owner not willing to allow supply chain to correct for shortages.

I believe they are being required for three phase receptacles.