210.8 GFCI protection

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peter d said:
I believe the EGC is the first line of defense because it doesn't need electronics that could potentially fail. GFCI's are a backup stop gap measure for compromised EGC's. My opinion, of course.
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This is true for faults where the “hot” wire comes into contact with any adjacent metal.
The GFCI is still the first line of protection when a person comes into contact with a “hot” wire while also in contact with anything grounded.
 
retirede said:
This is true for faults where the “hot” wire comes into contact with any adjacent metal.
The GFCI is still the first line of protection when a person comes into contact with a “hot” wire while also in contact with anything grounded.
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But 30 years ago they only required them in places where you had a much greater risk of being in contact with something grounded. Now they are requiring them on many applications where that isn't exactly the case. But other than the dwelling dishwasher and boat hoists the general rules in 210.8 still only involve situations with cord and plug connections where compromised EGC's at the receptacle/cord cap has a higher risk of happening.
 
kwired said:
...Other than maybe an occasional trip from a surge, a GDO in good working condition shouldn't cause GFCI tripping issues anyway, nor should a refrigerator or freezer which were the other items often people didn't (and still don't) want on GFCI's.
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The problem I've seen too often is that the surge tripped a GFCI that no one knew about because the only thing plugged in to it was the freezer holding an entire year's supply of meat in it. I will never plug my freezer into a GFCI-protected outlet, and you might as well turn me in right now.
 
MAC702 said:
The problem I've seen too often is that the surge tripped a GFCI that no one knew about because the only thing plugged in to it was the freezer holding an entire year's supply of meat in it. I will never plug my freezer into a GFCI-protected outlet, and you might as well turn me in right now.
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I made sure mine was connected to a GFCI. It was close, grandchildren vs pizza & leftovers, tough decision.
 
MAC702 said:
The problem I've seen too often is that the surge tripped a GFCI that no one knew about because the only thing plugged in to it was the freezer holding an entire year's supply of meat in it. I will never plug my freezer into a GFCI-protected outlet, and you might as well turn me in right now.
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I'm with you on this. I don't know what the phenomena is with refers in a garage but they are notorious for tripping GFI's.

That said, there are a couple of things I KNOW for sure:
  1. I KNOW that if I install my GDO on a GFCI protected circuit, that circuit is going to fail when I'm coming home late on a snowy or rainy night at 2:00 AM
  2. I KNOW that if I have a refer or freezer in my garage and I plug it into a GFCI receptacle, as soon as I stock that unit with food it is going to trip
  3. I KNOW that when I get to an airport and after I go through TSA check, if there's a crying child ANYWHERE in the airport, that child is going to end up on my flight and 2 seats away from me.
I seem to be a magnate for that.:happyyes:
 
goldstar said:
I'm with you on this. I don't know what the phenomena is with refers in a garage but they are notorious for tripping GFI's.

That said, there are a couple of things I KNOW for sure:
  1. I KNOW that if I install my GDO on a GFCI protected circuit, that circuit is going to fail when I'm coming home late on a snowy or rainy night at 2:00 AM
  2. I KNOW that if I have a refer or freezer in my garage and I plug it into a GFCI receptacle, as soon as I stock that unit with food it is going to trip
  3. I KNOW that when I get to an airport and after I go through TSA check, if there's a crying child ANYWHERE in the airport, that child is going to end up on my flight and 2 seats away from me.
I seem to be a magnate for that.:happyyes:
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:lol:

What you are describing is Murphy's Law, which in short states 'whatever can go wrong, will'.

As for the previously mentioned example of a freezer full of meat on an individual branch circuit with a GFCI, one could plug in a trouble/shop light into the receptacle (I realize this is a technical violation of individual branch circuit, but ignore that for a moment) to have a visual indication of the circuit being on, or some kind of plug-in alarm that sounds upon loss of power (which would require a battery).

If I'm doing new construction, it has to be up to code. If the homeowner does not like something like their freezer on a GFCI protected circuit, or arc fault breakers, they could *possibly* over hear me discussing ways to *hypothetically* get around that, if you get my drift...

GFCI protection is for these kind of faults, and if the homeowner has a 25 year old freezer they bought off Craigslist for 25 bucks that trips the receptacle, I'm going to be the first to tactfully tell them their appliance is a POS and to go get a new one.

A freezer full of meat going bad does suck, however the liability of a seven-year-old shocking himself getting a bomb pop out of the freezer and having to go to the ER because there was no ground fault protection to the appliance, nope. Murphy loves to get me with those 1 percenters...
 
I know CMP’s like to err on the side of caution and thus the reason for garage GFCI’s. It is also known that refers belong in a kitchen and not in a garage. We have a long way to go to convince HO’s that they don’t belong there. I would most certainly wire a house to Code but there will also, most certainly, be a HO or even an electrican coming in after I leave to change out the GFCI if they start having nuisance trips.
 
goldstar said:
...It is also known that refers belong in a kitchen and not in a garage....
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Many urbanites may not realize how big a meat freezer is.

As for an indicator of some kind, that presumes one is around it often enough to notice. Not all are.

Have there been shocks attributed to a freezer? I realize it's not a significant sample size, but I've had dozens of cases of spoiled freezers and have never heard of a shock, though I've not researched it, either. All my people have high quality new freezers for the same reason as we don't want GFI protection on them, reliability. And yes, many of us, ALSO have alarms, and make sure we can see the indicator LED on the front.
 
MAC702 said:
Many urbanites may not realize how big a meat freezer is.

As for an indicator of some kind, that presumes one is around it often enough to notice. Not all are.

Have there been shocks attributed to a freezer? I realize it's not a significant sample size, but I've had dozens of cases of spoiled freezers and have never heard of a shock, though I've not researched it, either. All my people have high quality new freezers for the same reason as we don't want GFI protection on them, reliability. And yes, many of us, ALSO have alarms, and make sure we can see the indicator LED on the front.
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I can absolutely confirm a shock to a freezer/fridge. I thought my arms were going to rip out of my sockets when I touched it and the sink at the same time. (Insert expletive of your choice). Once of that level was enough.
 
MAC702 said:
Many urbanites may not realize how big a meat freezer is.

As for an indicator of some kind, that presumes one is around it often enough to notice. Not all are.

Have there been shocks attributed to a freezer? I realize it's not a significant sample size, but I've had dozens of cases of spoiled freezers and have never heard of a shock, though I've not researched it, either. All my people have high quality new freezers for the same reason as we don't want GFI protection on them, reliability. And yes, many of us, ALSO have alarms, and make sure we can see the indicator LED on the front.
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My freezer is in my unfinished basement - GFCI required. It has a big green power light on the door that lights up the entire area when all overhead lights are off. It would be very noticeable if it lost power.
Also, the entire thing is plastic - at least what I can touch without sticking my hand under or behind it. There is no possibility of touching an inadvertently energized part during normal use of the appliance.
I’ve never heard of anyone being shocked by a freezer, either.
 
My dads old freezer shocked us one time... he had gotten it from his dads Perth Amboy butcher shop... big commersial with the sliding windows... luckily it was just a loose wire, that a mouse had gotten too.. still working now and is around 50 years old... it is at my sister home..lol
 
Adamjamma said:
My dads old freezer shocked us one time... he had gotten it from his dads Perth Amboy butcher shop... big commersial with the sliding windows... luckily it was just a loose wire, that a mouse had gotten too.. still working now and is around 50 years old... it is at my sister home..lol
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How is the mouse doing?:p
 
dunno but he would be in his forties now..lol...
The moving company that got our junk from Jersey to Virginia wanted double for getting the freezer into the house... it was heavy...

When my sister was going to Georgia she gota Uhaul and we took the step rails off... and slid it right in ... guess the movers had never thought of unbolting the sections of railings to get it in ...
 
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