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220.60 Noncoincident loads

Merry Christmas

Ryan Ray

Member
Location
Washington
Occupation
Lead Maintenance Electrcian
If AC is omitted as the smaller load, is it still increased 25% if it's the largest motor? Tom Henry's Calculations book states that you use the next highest rated motor and not the AC if it's omitted, but I don't believe this is true. Does anyone know if I'm, correct?
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
The language in 220.60 on dealing with this question has changed every cycle the last couple cycles, and so I think there's still some debate about what it actually tells you to do. But here's what it should say:

You have two non-coincident loads, say the A/C and the Heat. Calculate the total load as if there was no Heat, just A/C. And then calculate the total load as if there was A/C and no Heat. Use whichever is bigger.

So yes, if the A/C is omitted as the smaller load, the 25% extra for the largest motor would ignore the A/C and use the next largest motor.

Again, maybe they didn't get the language correct to say this, but it is obviously the correct formulation.

Cheer, Wayne
 

Ryan Ray

Member
Location
Washington
Occupation
Lead Maintenance Electrcian
The language in 220.60 on dealing with this question has changed every cycle the last couple cycles, and so I think there's still some debate about what it actually tells you to do. But here's what it should say:

You have two non-coincident loads, say the A/C and the Heat. Calculate the total load as if there was no Heat, just A/C. And then calculate the total load as if there was A/C and no Heat. Use whichever is bigger.

So yes, if the A/C is omitted as the smaller load, the 25% extra for the largest motor would ignore the A/C and use the next largest motor.

Again, maybe they didn't get the language correct to say this, but it is obviously the correct formulation.

Cheer, Wayne
Nothing in the NEC states to use the next largest if omitted, but 220.60 states "Where the motor is part of the noncoincident load and is not the largest of the noncoincident loads, 125% of the motor load shall be used in the calculation if it's the largest motor." It appears you can still use the AC as the largest motor load.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Nothing in the NEC states to use the next largest if omitted,
Logic does. If the A/C is largest, and you are omitting it because it's non-coincident with some other larger load, then the next largest motor is the largest motor that is being included in the calculation.

but 220.60 states "Where the motor is part of the noncoincident load and is not the largest of the noncoincident loads, 125% of the motor load shall be used in the calculation if it's the largest motor." It appears you can still use the AC as the largest motor load.
OK, that's the 2020 NEC version, the 2017, 2023, and 2026 First Draft versions are all different from that. I don't even know exactly what the above means. Here's a rational method:

Take the case of a load without A/C or heat of say 100A where the largest motor is 8A (so it's 90A non-motor plus 125% * 8A = 100A). Say the A/C is a 20A motor load, and the heat is 30A non-motor, and they are non-coincident (locked out by the thermostat).

Now compare (a) a/c only, so the load is 90A + 8A + 125% * 20A = 123A to (b) heat only, so the load is 90A + 30A + 125% * 8A = 130A. The second number is higher, so your load is 130A.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Ryan Ray

Member
Location
Washington
Occupation
Lead Maintenance Electrcian
The fact is if the AC is the largest motor load it should still be calculated as such. Its a noncoincident load but it's still a load. Why delete it altogether? 220.60 is just saying to use the largest of the 2 which makes sense. If only one operates at a time you would obviously calculate the largest.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
The fact is if the AC is the largest motor load it should still be calculated as such.
Only for the case it is operating. For the case it is not operating, its presence obviously doesn't affect the loading.

Its a noncoincident load but it's still a load. Why delete it altogether?
It's not deleted altogether, it is just contributing to the possibility of being the largest motor and thereby getting an extra 25% only for the case when it is operating.

Here's another way to think about it: we have 3 houses in a row, all identical, except: house 1 has heating only; house 2 has a/c only; and house 3 has heating and a/c, but they are non-coincident.

Load calculations for house 1 and house 2 are straightforward and don't involve dealing with non-coincident loads. The load calc for house 3 should equal the larger of the load calcs for house 1 and house 2. Whenever house 3's heating is operating, its load will be identical to house 1. And whenever house 3's a/c is operating, its load will be identical to house 2.

Cheers, Wayne
 

Ryan Ray

Member
Location
Washington
Occupation
Lead Maintenance Electrcian
Only for the case it is operating. For the case it is not operating, its presence obviously doesn't affect the loading.


It's not deleted altogether, it is just contributing to the possibility of being the largest motor and thereby getting an extra 25% only for the case when it is operating.

Here's another way to think about it: we have 3 houses in a row, all identical, except: house 1 has heating only; house 2 has a/c only; and house 3 has heating and a/c, but they are non-coincident.

Load calculations for house 1 and house 2 are straightforward and don't involve dealing with non-coincident loads. The load calc for house 3 should equal the larger of the load calcs for house 1 and house 2. Whenever house 3's heating is operating, its load will be identical to house 1. And whenever house 3's a/c is operating, its load will be identical to house 2.

Cheers, Wayne
Simply Electrical has a duplex calculations video and he omitted the AC against the heat and used the AC as the largest motor load x 25%. It makes sense but it would be nice if the NEC stated a rule on this.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Simply Electrical has a duplex calculations video and he omitted the AC against the heat and used the AC as the largest motor load x 25%. It makes sense but it would be nice if the NEC stated a rule on this.
Which makes sense, "Simply Electrical's" method or my method? "Simply Electrical's method" gives a slightly higher value, so it's conservative. But I'd say my method obviously makes more sense.

FWIW, below is the the 2026 NEC First Draft version, it has moved to Section 120.6. And 120.11(A) is the bit about 125% of the largest motor plus all the rest of the loads.

I would argue that my method is 100% in accordance with the 2026 NEC First Draft text. The 2017, 2020, and 2023 NEC texts are all different and all open to "Simply Electrical's" interpretation.

Cheers, Wayne

2026 NEC First Draft
120.6 Noncoincident Loads.

For two or more noncoincident loads, it shall be permitted to use the single largest of these loads in the calculation of the total load. Determination of the largest noncoincident load shall include treatment of any motor-operated and combination loads as specified in 120.11(A). Noncoincident loads shall be considered to be one of the following:

(1) For feeders or services: Two or more loads that are unlikely to be in use simultaneously
(2) For branch-circuits, feeders, or services: Two or more loads that are prevented from being in use simultaneously by listed equipment
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
...
2026 NEC First Draft
120.6 Noncoincident Loads.

For two or more noncoincident loads, it shall be permitted to use the single largest of these loads in the calculation of the total load. Determination of the largest noncoincident load shall include treatment of any motor-operated and combination loads as specified in 120.11(A). Noncoincident loads shall be considered to be one of the following:

(1) For feeders or services: Two or more loads that are unlikely to be in use simultaneously
(2) For branch-circuits, feeders, or services: Two or more loads that are prevented from being in use simultaneously by listed equipment
It appears to me that list item (2) should only be for branch circuits. Keeping feeders and services in item (2) creates a different standart for services and feeders as compared to the standard set in item (1).
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
It appears to me that list item (2) should only be for branch circuits. Keeping feeders and services in item (2) creates a different standart for services and feeders as compared to the standard set in item (1).
That's not a problem, just a case of unnecessary overlap. "One of the following" means that either condition alone suffices. The fact that for a feeder or service, condition (2) implies condition (1) doesn't change anything.

Cheers, Wayne
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
It appears to me that list item (2) should only be for branch circuits. ....
I think I disagree. For example with smart panel apps and such, it's possible that two loads on different branch circuits could be prevented from being used simultaneously. It might be redundant with 220.70 but perhaps not, if it can be accomplished with listed equipment that happens not to be a listed EMS.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
It says "one of the following" not "both of the following". It's OR, not AND. No conflict.

Cheers, Wayne
What if the non-coincident loads actually are "both of the following" ? Say, heating and cooling that are unlikely to be used simultaneously, and two EVSE branch circuits controlled by an EMS. All on the same feeder.

This section still needs work.
 

Elect117

Senior Member
Location
California
Occupation
Engineer E.E. P.E.
What if the non-coincident loads actually are "both of the following" ? Say, heating and cooling that are unlikely to be used simultaneously, and two EVSE branch circuits controlled by an EMS. All on the same feeder.

This section still needs work.

I think the EMS/PCS is redundant because those sections have different wording that will allow the load to exceed the value calculated in other parts of 220 as long as the EMS/PCS limits it or controls it.

So, in this example, you would have the larger of the heating / cooling and one EVSE rated to the PCS/EMS rating.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
What if the non-coincident loads actually are "both of the following" ? Say, heating and cooling that are unlikely to be used simultaneously, and two EVSE branch circuits controlled by an EMS. All on the same feeder.
Well, if there's an EMS, for the EVSEs we don't need to consort with 2026 NEC First Draft 120.6. A different sections covers that. That leaves the heating and cooling, which would be on different branch circuits, so (2) would not apply. And if the heating and cooling are unlikely to be in use simultaneously, then (1) applies, and they are non-coincident. So we use 120.6 for the heating and cooling.

Here's a different example, maybe what you are driving at: there's one branch circuit that supplies two EVSEs that are mechanically interlocked so that only one can be powered at once (maybe they have different incompatible plugs for different vehicles, like one is for the original Tesla Roadster). Then the EVSEs are non-coincident under (2). And the heating and cooling are non-coincident under (1). All is well, no problem with the text of (1) and (2).

Of course that raises the question of how you deal with two different sets of non-coincident loads, but the 120.6 language is broad enough that you can just do the obvious thing: consider 4 different cases, heating and EVSE1, heating and EVSE2, cooling and EVSE1, and cooling and EVSE2.

For the case of two EVSEs, you don't have to resort to that complexity, all you need to do is compare them and use the larger rating, then do the usual thing for heating vs cooling. But we can certainly come up with other examples with other types of loads where you really do need to consider all 4 cases.

Cheers, Wayne
 

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
It says "one of the following" not "both of the following". It's OR, not AND. No conflict.

Cheers, Wayne
If it is truly an OR, then (2) is redundant and not needed when speaking of just feeders and services, complying with (2) means you have automatically complied with (1), therefore (2) is simply verbose text.
 
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