230.7 nec

[BEACONHILLELECTRIC]

230.7 says that you can't install any other conductors in the same raceway or cable as the service conductors. Raceway is the keyword. In the index of the codebook it lists all the raceway types, and a gutter is not one of them. Gutters have there own section and there uses and uses not permitted. In the definitions it defines a raceway and the keyword gutter was not in there. When i bought the 'gutter' it was listed and named a gutter on the box. So if a gutter is not a raceway, then does 230.7 not apply to my service:
400 amp underground meter to left fed down to a gutter (6x6x3'), feeding through the gutter to the two 200 amp main panels mounted above the gutter...now the sub feeds to sub panels also come into the back of the gutter and feed up into the main panels...fused with non fused?? Look above in the panels, a panel is not a raceway either...but there are unfused with branch circuits just like the gutter below. I sure would like some clarification of terminology, as one inspector passed this same service on the other side of the street, but on this side of the street it was failed because of 230.7...both built the exact same way. I posted my question on uask.com for 15 bucks and the electrical contractors couldn't answer it, and the inspector on the site said he would have passed it. I just want to know if it is legal or illegal...not whether or not someone will pass it. I think my inspector may be right for failing it, as common sense tells me it may not be safe, but i didn't write the codebook or it's terminology. Thanks for your help..

 

[Smart $]

Unfortunately, this area is not clearly defined in the Code. In my opinion, if it is an auxiliary gutter used as an auxiliary gutter and not as a wireway, then you are good to go.

If used as a wireway, looking again at the defintion of raceway, it says...

Raceway. An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic
materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or
busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this
Code. Raceways include, but are not limited to, rigid metal
conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, intermediate metal conduit,
liquidtight flexible conduit, flexible metallic tubing,
flexible metal conduit, electrical nonmetallic tubing, electrical
metallic tubing, underfloor raceways, cellular concrete
floor raceways, cellular metal floor raceways, surface
raceways, wireways, and busways.

 

[skeshesh]

Gutter

Gutter

I would think the inspector is correct in this case. If you take a look at the definition of "raceway" in article 100, it's states as "an enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this code. Raceways include, but are not limited to..." and goes on to list some commonly used raceways. It seems to me that a gutter fits into this descriptions and the definition does explicitly indicate that the definition is not limited to the list of raceways it provides. This is my understanding of the code, but you should wait for a couple of more comments since there are many members of this forum that are code experts and I wouldn't consider myself as such.

 

[iwire]

Unfortunately, this area is not clearly defined in the Code. In my opinion, if it is an auxiliary gutter used as an auxiliary gutter and not as a wireway, then you are good to go.

And in my opinion if the it is used as an 'auxiliary gutter' but the UL tag says wireway it is wireway and a raceway.

 

[petersonra]

I would think the inspector is correct in this case. If you take a look at the definition of "raceway" in article 100, it's states as "an enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this code. Raceways include, but are not limited to..." and goes on to list some commonly used raceways. It seems to me that a gutter fits into this descriptions and the definition does explicitly indicate that the definition is not limited to the list of raceways it provides. This is my understanding of the code, but you should wait for a couple of more comments since there are many members of this forum that are code experts and I wouldn't consider myself as such.

Would a junction box also be a raceway by this definition?

I think a gutter is a gutter, and not a raceway. Take a look at 230.41. If a gutter was also a raceway, exception (5) would be covered by exception(1) and thus not be necessary, thus implying a gutter is not a raceway.


Look at 250.92. it also clearly differentiates between raceways and gutters. As does 250.118(13), 300.3(B) (in several places), and other places I am too lazy to type out (PDF search is very helpful for this kind of thing).

Take a look at 366. Does that look like it is describing a raceway?

366.10 Uses Permitted. Auxiliary gutters shall be permitted
to supplement wiring spaces at meter centers, distribution centers,
switchboards, and similar points of wiring systems and
may enclose conductors or busbars.

It seems quite clear that a gutter is not part of the raceway system. It is part of the device it supplements.

 

[cpal]

explanatoy print 2008 HB 366.6(B)

Only nonmetallic auxiliary gutters are required to be listed. Auxiliary gutter sections and associated fittings are identical to those of wireways and, where listed by UL, bear the UL listing mark ?Listed Wireway? or ?Auxiliary Gutter.? They differ only in their intended use. See 366.2 Definitions for a clear understanding of auxiliary gutters. See the commentary following 376.2 for a comparative discussion.

 

[petersonra]

And in my opinion if the it is used as an 'auxiliary gutter' but the UL tag says wireway it is wireway and a raceway.

366 does not require a gutter to be listed (unless 2008 changed it) unless it is outdoors or non-metallic.

366.6 Listing Requirements.
(A) Outdoors. Nonmetallic auxiliary gutters installed outdoors
shall comply with the following:
(1) Be listed as suitable for exposure to sunlight
(2) Be listed as suitable for use in wet locations
(3) Be listed for maximum ambient temperature of the
installation
(B) Indoors. Nonmetallic auxiliary gutters installed indoors
shall be listed for the maximum ambient temperature
of the installation.

 

[Smart $]

And in my opinion if the it is used as an 'auxiliary gutter' but the UL tag says wireway it is wireway and a raceway.

I agree, as long as it ONLY says wireway.

 

[iwire]

366 does not require a gutter to be listed (unless 2008 changed it) unless it is outdoors or non-metallic.

Nope, it does not. (I don't think wireways for standard dry locations have to be listed either)

But 110.3(B) requires listed products to be used per the listing and labeling.

To me this is the same as trying to call an incandescent fixture a fluorescent fixture just because you put a CFL in it.

 

[steve66]

Interesting question. I think a gutter is a raceway. It meets the definition, even though it isn't specifically listed in the definition.

Also, 366.23 specifically exempts gutters from table 310.15B2a whith is titled "Adjustment factors for........conductors in a raceway or cable."

If its not a raceway, why would it need this exception?

I'm now wondering about panelboards though. If you have service conductors enter the top of a panel, does that mean you can't have any branch wiring in the top of the panel??

Steve

 

[Smart $]

366 does not require a gutter to be listed (unless 2008 changed it) unless it is outdoors or non-metallic.

In 2008 a metallic gutter is not required to be listed. Nonmetallic is required to be listed, indoors or outdoors, but the listing requirements differ respectively.

EHHH... exactly what you had posted

 

[Smart $]

Interesting question. I think a gutter is a raceway. It meets the definition, even though it isn't specifically listed in the definition.

Also, 366.23 specifically exempts gutters from table 310.15B2a whith is titled "Adjustment factors for........conductors in a raceway or cable."

If its not a raceway, why would it need this exception?

To assure no one construes it to be a raceway.

I'm now wondering about panelboards though. If you have service conductors enter the top of a panel, does that mean you can't have any branch wiring in the top of the panel??

A panelboard is actually the guts. The "can" is an enclosure—which is not a raceway, nor is it used as a raceway as long as conductors do not both enter and exit without termination or splice.

 

[iwire]

I'm now wondering about panel boards though. If you have service conductors enter the top of a panel, does that mean you can't have any branch wiring in the top of the panel??

That s true .......... for electricians in the great white north.

It's my understanding that in Canda they require separation between the service conductors and the branch circuit wiring.

Their panels come with an extra metal cover that encloses the service conductors and line side of the main, I think it is a great idea. Once you kill the main you can safely work in the panel.

 

[iwire]

You can see the extra cover in the above picture.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

You can see the extra cover in the above picture.

I see these a lot in industrial settings. Agreed they are great. Sorry no picture.

 

[iwire]

Sorry no picture.

I did not have one either, but Home Depot of Canada did.

 

[steve66]

To assure no one construes it to be a raceway.

I can't argue with that

I guess you are right about the panelboard too. Even if an "auxillary gutter" is a raceway, I guess that doesn't mean a panelboard gutter is also a raceway.

Beaconhill: I think your final answer is going to be "Its however your inspector calls it." Are you still going to send us our 15 bucks??

Steve

 

[petersonra]

And in my opinion if the it is used as an 'auxiliary gutter' but the UL tag says wireway it is wireway and a raceway.

Its common to use things that they are not listed for. Like using RMC to hang things from. An empty piece of RMC is not a raceway unless wires are put in it.

For a listed device you have to use it in accordance with its listing for the listed application. Nothing says you can't use it for something else.

 

[cadpoint]

...
It seems quite clear that a gutter is not part of the raceway system. It is part of the device it supplements.

I believe you should make a word substitution, "device" should be "equipment"...

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
Their panels come with an extra metal cover that encloses the service conductors and line side of the main, I think it is a great idea. Once you kill the main you can safely work in the panel.

Then please send a comment in support of proposal 9-136. Thanks.