230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

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celtic

celtic

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Another EC and I are having a "debate" about the service disconnect(200A) on a SFH.

Here's the "story":
From load side of meter, 2" RGS conduit will enter basement and run appx. 5' to new panel. The total length of service entrance conductors will be appx. 20' (allowing for pipe, fittings, terminations, etc). In the area where the 5' of interior piping is located will be/are:
- water meter and filtering system (appx 2')
- sump pit
- Central vac system (over sump pit) (using another appx.2')
The entire area will framed out/sheetrocked with 1 doorway directly infront of panel area.

The debate centers around:
230.70(1) Readily Accessible Location.
The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.


One camp (A) says the panel's 200A main CB will be within the scope and intent of 230.70(1)

The other camp(B) disagrees and states the disconnect should be a part of the meter pan to comply with 230.70(1).

I understand various local codes from posters may superceed NEC and that there may some other Articles/resources at play here, too. A few more logs on the fire won't hurt ;)

So whose camp will it be: A or B's?
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

I would say ,you have to ask the local AHJ.They have the final say so.personallyI find the install as being OK,but then again I`m not the ont that has to sign off the permit ;)
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

If you go by the words in the Code, you are in violation. ". . . or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors" doesn't leave you any room to extend into a building at all. My dictionary states "Short and direct: the nearest route to town." I do not feel like there is any wiggle room.

With that said, the AHJ in several locations has permitted 2 ft, 5 ft, 10 ft (that is what is permitted here), 12 ft, 15 ft, and 20 ft (that is the furthest I have heard of) inside the building before a service disconnecting means. In other words, I agree with Allen's post. :D
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

230.70(1) Readily Accessible Location.
The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.


:) ) - but what do you THINK the AHJ would say
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

Celtic, the equipment doesn't matter as to the placement of the service equipment. If you can't put it at the point closest to the entry into the building, you are in violation. The Code doesn't mention an exception for the installation of any equipment. :D
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

230.70(A)(1). ..."or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors."

230.6 Conductors Considered Outside the Building.

90.2(C)Special Permission.

In my humble opinion, the service disconnect is located where it enters the building, or the conductors are encased in concrete, or the disconnect is located outside the building.

There are jurisdictions that permit the service conductors to travel a certain distance inside the building, make sure that is in writing.
There are also jurisdictions that do not permit the disconnect or service conductors inside of the building at all.

I have been in court 2 times in the last 3 weeks testifying and I can tell you the lawyers and their experts are very sharp, you had better know what is stated or they will chew you up and spit you out - with a smile!!!


I know that there are jurisdictions that have permitted non compliant installations [for whatever reason(s)], which have led the local electricians to think the installation procedure is okay. Like I mentioned, make sure that is in writing.

We had an incident here where that was the case for years. The procedure was brought up at a meeting and the contractors asked [knowing the requirement] for it in writing, and guess what... they could not put it in writing and now the electricians have to install in the code procedure and it has caused many consternation for awhile.
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

The meter is on the outside? How long is the pipe inside the house?
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

Charlie,
while there are no exceptions, the code does say "...readily accessible location". To walk PAST the panel (5') to that location doesn't seem to make sense (but the code isn't about that :) )..BUT, whose to say that wall and door will remain there.

Pierre,
before this "project" moves forward, it WILL have the blessing of the AHJ...in writing...either in his words or the NEC's.

Electricmanscott,
yes, the meter is outside...the conduit is appx. 5' long, from wall to panel. Outside is another 10'. (That bit seems to have gotten cut off my high tech drawing)

Thanks for the fuel...I mean input.
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

230.70 General. (A) (1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.

This panel should be installed outside. The one thing that needs to be taken into consideration here is the service entrance conductors have no overcurrent protection.

As the diagram shows these conductors will be in a very busy area crowed by equipment. Service on this equipment could led to damage to these conductors, unlikely but possible. Outside is hardly ever wrong.
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

I agree get it in writing before you go through all the trouble of doing the install :D
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

You can also pipe from meter on the outside of building as far as you want,then enter and go right into panel.

frank
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

No maximun distance is specified from the point of entrance of service conductors to a readily accessile location for the installation of a service disconnecting means. The authority enforcing this code has the responsiblity for, and is charged with, making the decision as to how far inside the building the service-entrance conductors are allowed to travel to the main disconnecting means. The lenght of service-entrance conductors should be kept to a minimun inside buildings, because power utilities provide limited overcurrent protection and, in event of fault, the service conductors could ignite nearby combustible materials. Some local jurisdictions have ordinances that allow service-entrance conductors to run within the building up to a specified lenght to terminate at the disconnecting means.
Note: If the authority judges the distance as being excessive, the disconnecting means may be required to be located on the outside of the building or near the building at a readily accessible location that is not necessarily nearest the point of entrance of the conductors.

Have to stop write. Hands getting tried.
Bye now!
Jim
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

I have a question for celtic. Is that door that leads to that panel an exterior door, or is it off some interior room.

paul
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

Originally posted by apauling:
I have a question for celtic. Is that door that leads to that panel an exterior door, or is it off some interior room.

paul
Click to expand...
The door leads to the interior. This is in a basement. The wall with the gas/teleco/panel etc, is an "exterior" block wall(front of property).
*************

Originally posted by jwelectric:

This panel should be installed outside. The one thing that needs to be taken into consideration here is the service entrance conductors have no overcurrent protection.
Click to expand...
I haven't seen many panel's mounted on the exterior of a SFH.
The only OCP would be the utilities.

Originally posted by jwelectric:

As the diagram shows these conductors will be in a very busy area crowed by equipment. Service on this equipment could led to damage to these conductors, unlikely but possible. Outside is hardly ever wrong.
Click to expand...
Very busy area, hence the RGS.
*************

Originally posted by allenwayne:
...or like george said use a metermain combo and this whole senario is over :D
Click to expand...
The gas main and related equipment is about 4' from the panel. An area of more concern, IMO, is with the water and filtering equipment which is about 2' away. The drawing ("room") encompasses an area about 10' x 3'; the dimensions somehow got cut off.
*************

If time allows, tom'row I will ask the AHJ and the Util.co - hopefully I'll get an answer (in writing) before Friday...somebody will be buying somebody else a steak dinner, either way...LOL.

Thanks to all !
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

Originally posted by james wuebker:
. . . service-entrance conductors should be kept to a minimum inside buildings, because power utilities provide limited overcurrent protection and . . .
Click to expand...
I have to take exception to this for smaller services. We are concerned about keeping our customers in service and do not protect the transformers. We put fuses in to protect the primary line. The fuse size we use on a 25 kVA transformer is a 15 T which will hold 150% of its rated current indefinitely. Do the calculations to see how much fault current it will take to get to 22.5 amperes at 7.62 kV and you will see that the transformer and service entrance conductors are not protected at all. :D
 
Re: 230.70 ~ Disconnecting Means

For five feet into the house and using rigid steel conduit I think this would be an ok setup. Get a few electricians together and show them the layout and you will get a bunch of guys with different opinions. Oh yea you just did. :D Four feet from gas. No problem. Two feet from water filtering equipment also no problem. This installation will be much safer than many I have seen. The equipment in the area will actually keep people away from the service conductors.
 
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