230.85 Questions.....I'm confused..

Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Hello and Thanks in advance. This is my first time posting and using this forum so I may be asking something that has been asked a thousand times. Anyway, I'm a contractor getting back into the business after a few years away. I bought Mike's comprehensive program and am trying to get re-educated.....The 2020 NEC is hoot I gotta say.

So, my question is....What do I do with this new "Emergency Disconnect" rule in 230.85? Mainly in an existing service change out? Do we bond the Neutral to the enclosure at this new "Emergency Disconnect" as well as at the newly changed out panel in the house? Bonded in two places? Rather than making it a 4 wire feeder panel? Putting it another way, let's say I have a house with an existing 100 panel which needs changing. It's a three wire from the meter to the panel. I don't need to change the "service conductors" because they are #4THHN coming into the panel now. To comply with 230.85, can I install a 100A rated Disconnect on the outside of the house, leaving the existing three wire "service conductors"? And then bond the Neutrals and grounds back together in the newly installed panel inside? Plus, bond the Neutral and the enclosure in my new "Emergency Disconnect? Or do I need to make the "Emergency Disconnect" the Service and make the panel inside a 4 wire feeder? Then what do I do with the GEC? Does that need to be relocated to the new "Emergency Disconnect"? Or, can that stay bonded to the panel inside?

Sorry for the long, drawn out post but again, thanks for the help.
 

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
The state of the Emergency Disconnect is in a state of flux right now because of what equipment may be available to you. If you have to use a service rated panel with a 2 pole breaker then it becomes the main panel and the panel in the house becomes a sub-panel. So, yes, you will have to move the ground to the outside disconnect panel which is your main service panel, run a 4 wire feeder from it to the now sub-panel panel inside. There you would remove the bonding screw and install a separate ground bar then move all the EGCs to it leaving the neutrals on the neutral bus.

However, if they come out with an Emergency Disconnect "switch", I believe that would just go in line with the 3 wire from the meter to the service panel inside.

-Hal
 
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Thanks for the reply Hal,

Here's my next question.

So then because of that, we would have to change the existing Dryer and Range circuits to 4 wire if they were 3 wire?
 

takelly

Member
Location
South dakota
The way I read it you can use a service rated panel with a 2 pole breaker panel and mark it EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT. Than you can run 3 wire into the service panel in the house and you would not have to change the dryer or range cable.
 
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Takelly,

That is how I am interpreting it myself. I've watched Mike's video and looked in his book, Understanding the NEC 2020 but I'm still not quite able to connect the dots in my mind as to what needs to be done exactly? I'm going to give it another study this morning when my brain is fresh and see if it becomes more clear. In the mean time, I would like to hear how other contractors are handling this?

Thanks a bunch to all of you! I truly appreciate your help!

Sincerely,

Shawn
 
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
I think may have tracked it down but you guys check me on it and see if you agree?

Art 230.82, leads me to 230.82(10) which says Emergency disconnects in accordance with 230.85 if they are grounded in accordance of 250 part 7, and bonded in accordance of 250 part 5. (230.85 is where this new Disconnect is required by the 2020 code...And has the rule about marking it according to 230.85(3).

Heading over to 250 part 5, leads me to 250.92 Services, which leads me to 250.92(A), which leads me to 250.92(A)(1) and (2), which says bond it all together. Do you agree?

Going further to 250 part 7, to clear up the last requirement aspect of 230.82(10).
I'm lead to 250.130 (Equip. Grounding Conductor Connections), which leads to 250.130(A) (Grounded Systems), which says the connection shall be made by bonding the equipment grounding conductor to the grounded service conductor.

So....Bond it all together....Twice...Which has been a no, no my whole electrical career. Hmmm...

I guess to me personally I would try to make it a service and a feeder whenever possible...

Anyway guys, give it look and see if you agree with this rabbit trail I've weaved together..

Thanks again and God bless!

Shawn
 
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Thanks Tom,

I appreciate the info and I'm not surprised because it is confusing. I'm hoping others will chime in and let us know how they are treating it.

I gather there are Inspectors here on this forum too? It would be helpful if they would weigh in as well.
 

Fred B

Senior Member
Location
Upstate, NY
Occupation
Electrician
The way I read it you can use a service rated panel with a 2 pole breaker panel and mark it EMERGENCY DISCONNECT, NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT. Than you can run 3 wire into the service panel in the house and you would not have to change the dryer or range cable.
Been told that is not completely accurate, if it is an overcurrent protection devices in the panel then it can not be simply labeled and make it so. It the seems would have to be a non fused probable knife throw switch. Dont know for a fact, there does seem to be significant confusion on this aspect. Any clarification in the proposals in the 2023?
 
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Been told that is not completely accurate, if it is an overcurrent protection devices in the panel then it can not be simply labeled and make it so. It the seems would have to be a non fused probable knife throw switch. Dont know for a fact, there does seem to be significant confusion on this aspect. Any clarification in the proposals in the 2023?
Hi Fred B,

When you look at 230.85(3) it says; Other listed Disconnect switches or circuit breakers on the supply side of each service Disconnect that are suitable for use as service equipment and marked as follows: Emergency Disconnect, Not service equipment.

I think a circuit breaker is fine. It has to be a service rated Disconnect like a SQD QO2100BNRB. It is SUSE rated.

Maybe others can let us know if we've got this wrong but I think takelly is right.

Thanks for helping us dig deeper.
 
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
But, you have to put a sticker on it that says "Emergency Disconnect, Not Service Equipment"

But it has to be rated "Suitable for Use as Service Equipment".
 
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Poweranytime,

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Can you clarify? Do you know what correct rule is, and what should be done?

Thank you,
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Been told that is not completely accurate, if it is an overcurrent protection devices in the panel then it can not be simply labeled and make it so. It the seems would have to be a non fused probable knife throw switch. Dont know for a fact, there does seem to be significant confusion on this aspect. Any clarification in the proposals in the 2023?
Can you cite any code language to support that idea? I am not aware of any, and it is my opinion that any disconnect installed on the outside and marked "emergency disconnect, not service equipment" can be used and the service equipment and associated bonding would be installed on the load side of the emergency disconnect.
 
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
So Donresqcapt are you agreeing that a circuit breaker and enclosure like a SQD QO2100BNRB could be the "Emergency Disconnect" and can be bonded like service equipment? And also be bonded again at the so called "Service" even if it is only three wires in between? I'm just trying to clarify....I'm interested in getting a consensus on this thing.

230.85(3) specifically says circuit breakers. If I have read it correctly?

Thanks and God bless.
 
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Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Can you cite any code language to support that idea? I am not aware of any, and it is my opinion that any disconnect installed on the outside and marked "emergency disconnect, not service equipment" can be used and the service equipment and associated bonding would be installed on the load side of the emergency disconnect.
I don't get why one would do this. If you use a main breaker panel that is suitable for service equipment then you have met the requirement. Why add another disconnect or are you saying a MB panel will not suffice?
 
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrician
Yes, I think some (not donresqcapt19 though if I understand his post) are saying the breaker and enclosure will not pass because of something which I've not been able to understand yet?

All of this is semantics because obviously the best thing to do is make it a 4 wire feeder panel and problem solved. I want to know because it does make a difference in the cost and time of a job. A service change out in a house could also mean you need to rewire the dryer and range, which could be substantial. In Minnesota there are many houses with finished basements (most often the service is located in the basement here.) with Dryers and Ranges on the upper floors. It truly seems far reaching if the code can make people almost completely rewire their home over a simple service change out. I agree we want to protect people but some of this stuff seems ridiculous.

Anyway, I would like to thank everyone for chiming in. It is making for a good discussion and we will eventually get it nailed down...It seems there are a bunch of sharp people here on this forum.

Thanks again,

Shawn
 
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