230 VAC 3 Phase???

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One other thought....kinda still on the subject. I'm old enough to have heard about 110/220, 115/230 and finally 120/240. Was it ever really 110/220? If so was it raised to allow for smaller wire to get the same watts? Just curious.....are we headed to 130/260? Or maybe 220 like Europe? Inquiring minds like mine want to know!:huh:

110/220V may have common ways back, IDK, not unusual to still hear it.

115/230V has always been motor voltage IME.

120/240V standard nominal.

Europe is different distribution system.
 
Yes, I know, but...

Non standard service. $$$


Depends on the POCO:

http://www.seattle.gov/light/engstd/docs2/U9-7.7.pdf

Page 157 or page 168 in the viewer tool box:


https://www.seattle.gov/light/engineerstd/docs/manuals/SES_2018_Online.pdf




Non standard tranny. $$$


Here under 3 phase common voltages:

https://www.mayerelectric.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/CMS/EN/GEC9T10A1007.pdf


https://www.google.com/search?q=139...68DcAhXLqVQKHfmqBOg4ChCzGAhx&biw=1440&bih=725


In the real world retired from service:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ITC-Transf...240Y-138-Volt-3-Phase-34T85H4-C-/232571587937

https://www.caseyusa.com/products/s...v-pri-139-240y-v-sec-olsun-indoor-transformer


OP needs basic info, not esoteric designs that are not used everyday.



While less common than 120/208 and 277/480, they are indeed out there and being used without issue. There is nothing esoteric about practical solutions to various real world problems. As is the OP will need "delta" breakers for 3 phase and anything that lands on the high leg, so no extra cost in that regard.
 
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Depends on the POCO:

http://www.seattle.gov/light/engstd/docs2/U9-7.7.pdf

Page 157 or page 168 in the viewer tool box:


https://www.seattle.gov/light/engineerstd/docs/manuals/SES_2018_Online.pdf







Here under 3 phase common voltages:

https://www.mayerelectric.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/CMS/EN/GEC9T10A1007.pdf

In the real world retired from service:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ITC-Transf...240Y-138-Volt-3-Phase-34T85H4-C-/232571587937

https://www.caseyusa.com/products/s...v-pri-139-240y-v-sec-olsun-indoor-transformer






While less common than 120/208 and 277/480, they are indeed out there and being used without issue. There is nothing esoteric about practical solutions to various real world problems. As is the OP will need "delta" breakers for 3 phase and anything that lands on the high leg, so no extra cost in that regard.

Sigh.....I know this crap....useless to OP......OP s specing a simple service or feeder.
 
... Was it ever really 110/220? ...
Yes, more than a hundred years ago. Edison's first lighting systems (c.1880 or so) specified 100-volt light bulbs (a nice round number) and 110-volt generators, the difference being an allowance for voltage drop. A few years later, the 3-wire Edison circuit was implemented to reduce the amount of copper wire needed. The red wire was +100 volts DC to ground; the black wire was -100 volts DC.

I don't know when -- or if -- AC circuits were actually 110/220 volt.
 
How far do we go back?

Edison started with 100VDC for his first system in NY, but right away as people wanted to be added on, he had to bump to 110VDC so that the people at the far end of the line had full brightness. Then when Tesla and Westinghouse pioneered AC, they chose 110VAC because most people who were using electricity were using it for Edison’s 110V bulbs (incandescent lamps don’t know from AC or DC). Then as AC motors became available, they needed more power for larger motors and used two lines of 110 to get 220. But later, after Tesla and others championed 3 phase distribution to save wire, plus the distances increased, they went to 115Y199 because 115 wasn’t too high for the improved light bulbs and 199 wasn’t too low for 220V motors. But even so, different utilities still used whatever they felt served their customers best, so what you had depended on where you were.

It stayed like that through the 20s even though the first standards were adopted in 1927 settling on 115 and by then, 230V as the distribution system. In 1932 the R.E.A., part of the New Deal, went around electrifying farms. The electricians were all given exactly the same setups for their trucks, which forced everyone to comply with that 115/230V standard. Did that mean everyone abandoned 110:220? No, because there was already too much installed base. But OFFICIALLY the standard has not been 110/220 for far far longer than it ever was. But what people call something is often created in the early outset and it sticks, despite changes in officialdom. The current ANSI standards cited earlier of 120/240 for residential distribution were settled on in 1978, yet the “110/220” concept persists to this day.
 
Sigh.....I know this crap....useless to OP......OP s specing a simple service or feeder.


I know that you know, but I have no way of knowing if the OP knows. If its a feeder, and coming from an ungrounded delta, corner ground delta, or high leg source- and his motor has a VFD- then he will need a solid ground reference. Hence the drive isolation units.


I know it sounds like I am making excuses for this setup however I am only guessing from the OP's limited info that the supply in question is indeed 240 volts or that he actually needs 240 volts at the device. Of course as others have said it could also be just the listing on the motor and will probably work on 208Y supply without issue.
 
It's been my experience that unless a motor has a nameplate rating of 208-230 (some do, but may require different wiring connections), a 230V motor will not work well (or at all) on 208. 230 on 240 is fine, 460 on 480 is fine.

Most of my motor experience has been with larger 3 phase, though.
Seen many motors only marked 230 volts that run fine on 208 volt systems. Where you may have more troubles is when your 208 volt system is running at the low end of voltage tolerance, but if it is running at high end of tolerance you are still within the low tolerance range of the motor.

Depends on the POCO:

http://www.seattle.gov/light/engstd/docs2/U9-7.7.pdf

Page 157 or page 168 in the viewer tool box:


https://www.seattle.gov/light/engineerstd/docs/manuals/SES_2018_Online.pdf







Here under 3 phase common voltages:

https://www.mayerelectric.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/CMS/EN/GEC9T10A1007.pdf


https://www.google.com/search?q=139...68DcAhXLqVQKHfmqBOg4ChCzGAhx&biw=1440&bih=725


In the real world retired from service:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ITC-Transf...240Y-138-Volt-3-Phase-34T85H4-C-/232571587937

https://www.caseyusa.com/products/s...v-pri-139-240y-v-sec-olsun-indoor-transformer






While less common than 120/208 and 277/480, they are indeed out there and being used without issue. There is nothing esoteric about practical solutions to various real world problems. As is the OP will need "delta" breakers for 3 phase and anything that lands on the high leg, so no extra cost in that regard.
"Delta breakers" are an item from the past. I'm guessing you meant a straight 240 volt breaker vs a 120/240 volt rated breaker. That said AFAIK all of today's common miniature three pole breakers are straight 240 volt rated and you only need to be concerned with that "slash vs straight" rating for two pole breakers at times.
 
"Delta breakers" are an item from the past. I'm guessing you meant a straight 240 volt breaker vs a 120/240 volt rated breaker. That said AFAIK all of today's common miniature three pole breakers are straight 240 volt rated and you only need to be concerned with that "slash vs straight" rating for two pole breakers at times.


Correct- straight rated- not those old 4 pole breakers that took two busses and looped through a high leg. Sadly I've gotten into the habit of calling straight rated breakers "delta breakers" because I think of them as typically being used on 120/240 3 phase delta. Also true about today's 3 poles being all straight rated. If only they would offer a straight rated single pole :angel:
 
Correct- straight rated- not those old 4 pole breakers that took two busses and looped through a high leg. Sadly I've gotten into the habit of calling straight rated breakers "delta breakers" because I think of them as typically being used on 120/240 3 phase delta. Also true about today's 3 poles being all straight rated. If only they would offer a straight rated single pole :angel:
Aren't they straight rated - 120?

I guess I was thinking how would you ever use them for 240, but I suppose a 120/240 rating would be possible considering use with a handle tie and at least one more breaker.
 
Aren't they straight rated - 120?

I guess I was thinking how would you ever use them for 240, but I suppose a 120/240 rating would be possible considering use with a handle tie and at least one more breaker.

Straight rated 240 :p Would make use of the high leg for lighting, water heaters, ect. I've known of cases where people wanted to make use of that empty every third space.
 
Straight rated 240 :p Would make use of the high leg for lighting, water heaters, ect. I've known of cases where people wanted to make use of that empty every third space.
I have made use of it before, but never for a line to neutral connected circuit. May not have complied with the slash rating of a two pole breaker though:blink: but was not as educated on this topic at one time either.
 
I have made use of it before, but never for a line to neutral connected circuit. May not have complied with the slash rating of a two pole breaker though:blink: but was not as educated on this topic at one time either.

Personally I have a strong dislike for delta systems as you can see from this thread :lol:
 
Personally I have a strong dislike for delta systems as you can see from this thread :lol:
They have their place. If you have primarily 120 volt loads that is not their place, unless you are in remote area and choose to go with open instead of full delta to have less distribution involved and still need three phase for certain loads.

If your load is mostly three phase motors - why not go with 240 instead of 208 volts?
 
They have their place. If you have primarily 120 volt loads that is not their place, unless you are in remote area and choose to go with open instead of full delta to have less distribution involved and still need three phase for certain loads.

If your load is mostly three phase motors - why not go with 240 instead of 208 volts?

I agree- but there in is the issue- why have two separate voltage systems? It would be nice if we only had 208 or 240 nominal.
 
And this is useful to the OP in what way?

Voltage trivia info IMO....non standard service.

Ha thanks for not clouding up the waters...

Everyone thanks for your responses. I appreciate the help and looks like it led to a decent conversation on distribution.

As for the "I've had to explain this far too many times..." comment, It's these kind of comments that make people not want to ask the questions. (I have a feeling it was probably multiple times to a few people) Perhaps if you were better at explaining you wouldn't have to do it so many times. I have a feeling you never asked that question and was born with that knowledge.

Thanks again everyone
 
Ha thanks for not clouding up the waters...

Everyone thanks for your responses. I appreciate the help and looks like it led to a decent conversation on distribution.

As for the "I've had to explain this far too many times..." comment, It's these kind of comments that make people not want to ask the questions. (I have a feeling it was probably multiple times to a few people) Perhaps if you were better at explaining you wouldn't have to do it so many times. I have a feeling you never asked that question and was born with that knowledge.

Thanks again everyone

So, what did you decide? 208V wye or 240 delta?
 
Ha thanks for not clouding up the waters...

Everyone thanks for your responses. I appreciate the help and looks like it led to a decent conversation on distribution.

As for the "I've had to explain this far too many times..." comment, It's these kind of comments that make people not want to ask the questions. (I have a feeling it was probably multiple times to a few people) Perhaps if you were better at explaining you wouldn't have to do it so many times. I have a feeling you never asked that question and was born with that knowledge.

Thanks again everyone

I made that comment and it was not meant to be condescending to you or anyone else. I apologize if it came across that way.

My point was (and mentioned by Jraef) that this is not taught in trade or Engineering schools which is a real disservice to those being taught.
 
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