mbrooke
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- Technician
Its another way to get 3 phase 240 if needed.
230 VAC 3 Phase???
- Thread starter ephesus
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Its another way to get 3 phase 240 if needed.
jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
110/220V may have common ways back, IDK, not unusual to still hear it.
115/230V has always been motor voltage IME.
120/240V standard nominal.
Europe is different distribution system.
jumper
Senior Member
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Yes, I know, but...
Non standard service. $$$
Non standard tranny. $$$
OP needs basic info, not esoteric designs that are not used everyday.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
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- Henrico County, VA
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- Electrical Contractor
You're still a child. I remember 110,112, 115, 117, and 118. (on appliances and equipment, not from services)
Yes, back when a high leg was 190v.
"220, 221, whatever it takes."
mbrooke
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Depends on the POCO:
http://www.seattle.gov/light/engstd/docs2/U9-7.7.pdf
Page 157 or page 168 in the viewer tool box:
https://www.seattle.gov/light/engineerstd/docs/manuals/SES_2018_Online.pdf
Here under 3 phase common voltages:
https://www.mayerelectric.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/CMS/EN/GEC9T10A1007.pdf
https://www.google.com/search?q=139...68DcAhXLqVQKHfmqBOg4ChCzGAhx&biw=1440&bih=725
In the real world retired from service:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ITC-Transf...240Y-138-Volt-3-Phase-34T85H4-C-/232571587937
https://www.caseyusa.com/products/s...v-pri-139-240y-v-sec-olsun-indoor-transformer
While less common than 120/208 and 277/480, they are indeed out there and being used without issue. There is nothing esoteric about practical solutions to various real world problems. As is the OP will need "delta" breakers for 3 phase and anything that lands on the high leg, so no extra cost in that regard.
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jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
Sigh.....I know this crap....useless to OP......OP s specing a simple service or feeder.
drcampbell
Senior Member
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- The Motor City, Michigan USA
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- Registered Professional Engineer
Yes, more than a hundred years ago. Edison's first lighting systems (c.1880 or so) specified 100-volt light bulbs (a nice round number) and 110-volt generators, the difference being an allowance for voltage drop. A few years later, the 3-wire Edison circuit was implemented to reduce the amount of copper wire needed. The red wire was +100 volts DC to ground; the black wire was -100 volts DC.
I don't know when -- or if -- AC circuits were actually 110/220 volt.
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Electrical Engineer
How far do we go back?
Edison started with 100VDC for his first system in NY, but right away as people wanted to be added on, he had to bump to 110VDC so that the people at the far end of the line had full brightness. Then when Tesla and Westinghouse pioneered AC, they chose 110VAC because most people who were using electricity were using it for Edison’s 110V bulbs (incandescent lamps don’t know from AC or DC). Then as AC motors became available, they needed more power for larger motors and used two lines of 110 to get 220. But later, after Tesla and others championed 3 phase distribution to save wire, plus the distances increased, they went to 115Y199 because 115 wasn’t too high for the improved light bulbs and 199 wasn’t too low for 220V motors. But even so, different utilities still used whatever they felt served their customers best, so what you had depended on where you were.
It stayed like that through the 20s even though the first standards were adopted in 1927 settling on 115 and by then, 230V as the distribution system. In 1932 the R.E.A., part of the New Deal, went around electrifying farms. The electricians were all given exactly the same setups for their trucks, which forced everyone to comply with that 115/230V standard. Did that mean everyone abandoned 110:220? No, because there was already too much installed base. But OFFICIALLY the standard has not been 110/220 for far far longer than it ever was. But what people call something is often created in the early outset and it sticks, despite changes in officialdom. The current ANSI standards cited earlier of 120/240 for residential distribution were settled on in 1978, yet the “110/220” concept persists to this day.
Edison started with 100VDC for his first system in NY, but right away as people wanted to be added on, he had to bump to 110VDC so that the people at the far end of the line had full brightness. Then when Tesla and Westinghouse pioneered AC, they chose 110VAC because most people who were using electricity were using it for Edison’s 110V bulbs (incandescent lamps don’t know from AC or DC). Then as AC motors became available, they needed more power for larger motors and used two lines of 110 to get 220. But later, after Tesla and others championed 3 phase distribution to save wire, plus the distances increased, they went to 115Y199 because 115 wasn’t too high for the improved light bulbs and 199 wasn’t too low for 220V motors. But even so, different utilities still used whatever they felt served their customers best, so what you had depended on where you were.
It stayed like that through the 20s even though the first standards were adopted in 1927 settling on 115 and by then, 230V as the distribution system. In 1932 the R.E.A., part of the New Deal, went around electrifying farms. The electricians were all given exactly the same setups for their trucks, which forced everyone to comply with that 115/230V standard. Did that mean everyone abandoned 110:220? No, because there was already too much installed base. But OFFICIALLY the standard has not been 110/220 for far far longer than it ever was. But what people call something is often created in the early outset and it sticks, despite changes in officialdom. The current ANSI standards cited earlier of 120/240 for residential distribution were settled on in 1978, yet the “110/220” concept persists to this day.
mbrooke
Batteries Included
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- United States
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- Technician
I know that you know, but I have no way of knowing if the OP knows. If its a feeder, and coming from an ungrounded delta, corner ground delta, or high leg source- and his motor has a VFD- then he will need a solid ground reference. Hence the drive isolation units.
I know it sounds like I am making excuses for this setup however I am only guessing from the OP's limited info that the supply in question is indeed 240 volts or that he actually needs 240 volts at the device. Of course as others have said it could also be just the listing on the motor and will probably work on 208Y supply without issue.
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
Seen many motors only marked 230 volts that run fine on 208 volt systems. Where you may have more troubles is when your 208 volt system is running at the low end of voltage tolerance, but if it is running at high end of tolerance you are still within the low tolerance range of the motor.
"Delta breakers" are an item from the past. I'm guessing you meant a straight 240 volt breaker vs a 120/240 volt rated breaker. That said AFAIK all of today's common miniature three pole breakers are straight 240 volt rated and you only need to be concerned with that "slash vs straight" rating for two pole breakers at times.
mbrooke
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Correct- straight rated- not those old 4 pole breakers that took two busses and looped through a high leg. Sadly I've gotten into the habit of calling straight rated breakers "delta breakers" because I think of them as typically being used on 120/240 3 phase delta. Also true about today's 3 poles being all straight rated. If only they would offer a straight rated single pole :angel:
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
Aren't they straight rated - 120?
I guess I was thinking how would you ever use them for 240, but I suppose a 120/240 rating would be possible considering use with a handle tie and at least one more breaker.
mbrooke
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Straight rated 240
Would make use of the high leg for lighting, water heaters, ect. I've known of cases where people wanted to make use of that empty every third space.
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
I have made use of it before, but never for a line to neutral connected circuit. May not have complied with the slash rating of a two pole breaker though:blink: but was not as educated on this topic at one time either.Straight rated 240
mbrooke
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Personally I have a strong dislike for delta systems as you can see from this thread :lol:
kwired
Electron manager
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- NE Nebraska
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- EC
They have their place. If you have primarily 120 volt loads that is not their place, unless you are in remote area and choose to go with open instead of full delta to have less distribution involved and still need three phase for certain loads.
If your load is mostly three phase motors - why not go with 240 instead of 208 volts?
mbrooke
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I agree- but there in is the issue- why have two separate voltage systems? It would be nice if we only had 208 or 240 nominal.
Ha thanks for not clouding up the waters...
Everyone thanks for your responses. I appreciate the help and looks like it led to a decent conversation on distribution.
As for the "I've had to explain this far too many times..." comment, It's these kind of comments that make people not want to ask the questions. (I have a feeling it was probably multiple times to a few people) Perhaps if you were better at explaining you wouldn't have to do it so many times. I have a feeling you never asked that question and was born with that knowledge.
Thanks again everyone
jumper
Senior Member
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- 3 Hr 2 Min from Winged Horses
So, what did you decide? 208V wye or 240 delta?
I made that comment and it was not meant to be condescending to you or anyone else. I apologize if it came across that way.
My point was (and mentioned by Jraef) that this is not taught in trade or Engineering schools which is a real disservice to those being taught.
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