240.6(c) and the accuracy and precision of adjustable-trip breakers

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I agree that it probably wouldn't fly with an AHJ because of "the letter of the law" and decades of misconception about the purpose of the 125% factor, but I'm sure that my reasoning is sound from an engineering standpoint and moreover, consistent with the intent of the code.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss it :)
 

kingpb

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I agree that it probably wouldn't fly with an AHJ because of "the letter of the law" and decades of misconception about the purpose of the 125% factor, but I'm sure that my reasoning is sound from an engineering standpoint and moreover, consistent with the intent of the code.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss it :)

It appears that you believe you already had the answer and want to simply argue your point when anyone provided a different perspective.
I'm curious on the intent of your OP and follow up example if that is the case.
 
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It appears that you believe you already had the answer and want to simply argue your point when anyone provided a different perspective.
I'm curious on the intent of your OP and follow up example if that is the case.
I did not intend to be argumentative, and my question in the OP was sincere. The OP had to do with settability of adjustable-trip breakers, but the ensuing discussion alerted me to possible conflicts with the NEC in using them as I'd envisioned. Based on research I'd done I thought it was allowable, and being a bit surprised that it may not be, I wanted to delve into the basis for the objections raised. I'm sorry if anyone was offended.
 
.... and decades of misconception about the purpose of the 125% factor, but I'm sure that my reasoning is sound from an engineering standpoint and moreover, consistent with the intent of the code.

So is the theory that because the breaker is a frame size that meets the 125% factor, or is capable of being set high enough to meet the 125% factor, then it meets the intent of the 125% requirement even if it is set lower? Just want to make sure I understand the proposition correctly. If that is the case, It is not intuitive to me that that setup meets the intent.
 
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So is the theory that because the breaker is a frame size that meets the 125% factor, or is capable of being set high enough to meet the 125% factor, then it meets the intent of the 125% requirement even if it is set lower? Just want to make sure I understand the proposition correctly. If that is the case, It is not intuitive to me that that setup meets the intent.
Yes. A breaker frame and trip unit are tested by UL to handle 80% of the frame rating, and the NEC requirement that it be rated to handle 125% of the continuous load is designed to coordinate with that. This requirement, and the requirement that the attached conductor's temperature while carrying 125% of the continuous load not exceed the termination's temperature rating, are entirely concerned with thermal protection of the breaker itself and have nothing to do with protection of the conductor.

240.6, on the other hand, like everything in Article 240, is concerned with protection of conductors from overcurrent, and the term "rating" as used in 240.6(C) would, in my ideal world, be taken in that context to mean the trip rating but not the frame size.

If my conductor provides adequate thermal protection of the terminations and breaker (at its frame size), dialing in the trip point so that the conductor is protected by the next-higher standard size as permitted under 240.6(C) does not reduce the frame size or the thermal characteristics of the breaker. A 200A breaker's thermal characteristics don't suddenly become those of a 175A breaker when you click the trip setting dial. It's still the same breaker.
 

jim dungar

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A breaker frame and trip unit are tested by UL to handle 80% of the frame rating....

As I understand it, breakers are tested at 100% of their rating in open air. They are only tested at 80% in an enclosure if they do not pass the open air testing.
 
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As I understand it, breakers are tested at 100% of their rating in open air. They are only tested at 80% in an enclosure if they do not pass the open air testing.
I'm sure you're right. The point is that thermal considerations relate to frame size, not trip point, where electronic trip units are involved.
 

kwired

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Yes. A breaker frame and trip unit are tested by UL to handle 80% of the frame rating, and the NEC requirement that it be rated to handle 125% of the continuous load is designed to coordinate with that. This requirement, and the requirement that the attached conductor's temperature while carrying 125% of the continuous load not exceed the termination's temperature rating, are entirely concerned with thermal protection of the breaker itself and have nothing to do with protection of the conductor.

240.6, on the other hand, like everything in Article 240, is concerned with protection of conductors from overcurrent, and the term "rating" as used in 240.6(C) would, in my ideal world, be taken in that context to mean the trip rating but not the frame size.

If my conductor provides adequate thermal protection of the terminations and breaker (at its frame size), dialing in the trip point so that the conductor is protected by the next-higher standard size as permitted under 240.6(C) does not reduce the frame size or the thermal characteristics of the breaker. A 200A breaker's thermal characteristics don't suddenly become those of a 175A breaker when you click the trip setting dial. It's still the same breaker.
I'm not familiar with requirements involving adjustable trip setting breakers, I just don't run into those applications, or at least the need to design circuits utilizing them.

That said I am pretty certain that a breaker is designed to handle 100% of it's current rating (max setting if adjustable), and I believe this is at a 40C ambient temperature as a general rule. The 80% rules only apply when dealing with continuous loads and when the breaker isn't otherwise designed for continuous operation at 100%.

Non adjustable trip setting 175 and 200 amp breakers from same manufacturer/product line typically are identical except for the trip setting (which I think usually is also adjustable, just not made readily available to adjust in the field), so thermally they are the same thing, just have a different set point.
 

zog

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I think you will find that the dial adjustments have discrete set points; i.e. they are not continuously adjustable. Thus you will be restricted to the multiple/percentage of current selected. The curve selected will be within the TCC band tolerances as provided by the manufacturer.

Exactly! And on some trip devices if you set the dial between one of those points it defaults to the minimum setting.
 

zog

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Keep in mind that the trip setting is not where the breaker is going to trip, it is going to be the pickup point where the trip device begins to time out before it trips. If set at 175A it will take a loooong time to actually trip at 175A.

This would be easier to discuss with specifics on the breaker you are talking about.
 

SteveO NE

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I can bite on what Julia is saying here but it opens up a whole host of other issues. I do in fact deal with similar scenarios of adjusting breakers frequently because our firm focuses on interconnecting co-generation to a building. Because we are typically trying to squeeze into busses we are derating breakers all the time, usually because line losses are a concern, I'm never splitting hairs with conductors, I can't think of the last time I've used the next size up rule on any circuit over 20A.

A 200AF/175AT fixed setting breaker may be the same discussion and may not be, depends on the breaker; usually if this setting change is done with thermal magnetic components then its not at all the same discussion because those thermal magnetic components themselves are rated for the trip setting, usually 100% rated breakers are electronic trip units so their tripping properties aren't [generally] affected by thermal properties of the circuit its controlling - these are strange size breakers to get into this discussion with. With an adjustable breaker it must be able to pass at its max trip setting for UL testing so yes I could agree that is the intent of the 80% rule if derating the trip on a breaker properly and depending on the trip curve you have.

However, your AHJ would probably argue that you have a full-rated circuit. I don't have my 2017 book in front of me (sorry stumbled across this working on different stuff instead of while slacking at the office) so I'll have to search later for references but I believe that if you are operating at 100% of trip rating continuous and in your case your conductor is sized for a 100% trip rating (vs. conductor sized for the 200A and you happen to be tripping it at 175A for other design reasons), it considers the thermal and inductive properties of an undersized conductor (or 100% sized conductor) at the lugs and how that impacts the switchgear that it is in, not just the breaker or the breaker frame itself. This is why if you trigger the 100% rated exemptions at all, you are forced to have all upstream equipment 100% rated.

So say this 175A continuous rated circuit is the only load in the MDP and you are at 100% rated and you have a 3000A main breaker, it needs to be 100%[full] rated even though the only current it is going to see is 175 amps continuous, well below the thermal rating of the breaker or the frame, the problem is that this now focuses on the CIRCUIT and all of its components and how the whole system is impacted by the choice to undersize your conductor. You'll need to use 90C wire but use the ampacities from the 75C table. This may or may not negate your original budget savings depending on your scenario when you factor in the impact to ancillary/upstream equipment to the equation.

In either case, I am surprised Jim didn't quote himself here:
"Just because you can, doesn't mean you should." - jim dungar

I think the worst thing to skimp on is conductor, especially in a conduit with so many CCC's. If life safety isn't enough of a concern energy efficiency is a huge factor as well.



 

kingpb

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I think clarification needs to be made for this discussion as to the type of equipment and not just breakers in a general context.

The equipment the breaker is installed in makes a large impact on the rating/type of breaker, and also makes a difference on the 80% or 100% capability.
 

jim dungar

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...how that impacts the switchgear that it is in...

The only impact that a 100% rated device makes is only on the amount of heat that must be moved from where it is mounted. A 100% rated device simply requires more ventilation/air movement.


I posted this information in a different thread.
I have a copy of the standard NEMA AB1-1986, yes it is old but that is all I have access to right now. For circuit breakers 150A and larger the only acceptable conductors are sized using the 75C column. The minimum length of the connected cable is 4 ft. Thermocouples are used to measure the temperature rise of various locations while the breaker is carrying 100% of its rated current in open air. In order to pass, the temperature rise is limited to 50C on wiring terminals (where the conductor insulation is). For 100% rated breakers, the testing is done in enclosures, not free air, and the manufacturer shall specify 90C conductors be installed (although they are not part of the test procedure), if the temperature rise is more than 50C and less than the fail point of 60C.
I believe UL489 is similar to these tests.
 
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