240VAC lighting Circuit used to power receptacles

[Transportation Guy]

Hello all. I have a customer here at a large resort who has in my eyes a few hazardous outlets istalled outside. There are 240VAC luminaire poles fed by a Dp 30 AMP overcurrent protective device. The grounds maintenance supervisor was asked to run "Christmas" lights to all the trees that surround these lights. The sup. did this by installing an extension cord at the bottom of the pole, tied into one leg (only needed 120VAC) and a ground. There is not a neutral present in the circuit. They installed GFCI outlets with weather proof covers that give this the look of a safe and functional GFCI protected installation but this is not the case. There are also some of these installed close to the outdoor pool. Couldnt this allow objectionable current to "seep" into the ground as well as metal parts?

Thanks,
Pete
Master Electrician
VA

 

[LarryFine]

Pete, this is clearly non-compliant and possibly dangerous for several reasons, not the least of which is that EGC's are often smaller than circuit conductors, and can be overloaded.

Plus, EGC's are not permitted to carry normal circuit current because it's possible to cause energization of surfaces that are normally considered to be grounded and safe to touch.

 

[Transportation Guy]

Thanks Larry. I probably should have put this under "Safety".

 

[LarryFine]

Thanks Larry. I probably should have put this under "Safety".

Just curious, which resort is this?



Pierce's Pitt BBQ forever!

 

[Transportation Guy]

Larry, I dont want to name drop because this company is hard to deal with. It takes me 90 days or so to get paid for the little work I do out there. For the safety of the public, hopefully they will comprehend that these issues they have need immediate corrections.

Peirces Pit is awesome. Being from N.C., it took me while to get used to eating it but now I love it. (when you can get in the door) We also smoke our own meet 2 or 3 times per month but it is nice to sit outside at Peirces and smell the smokers while we eat!!

Pete

 

[LarryFine]

Larry, I dont want to name drop . . .

I understand. I figured it was either Busch Gardens or the Great Wolf Lodge, the latter of which I've done a couple of fire-suppression jobs for. They were s-l-o-w to pay.

. . . it is nice to sit outside at Peirces and smell the smokers while we eat!!

I'm guessing you mean the meat smokers, and not nearby cigarette users.

 

[cschmid]

Hello all. I have a customer here at a large resort who has in my eyes a few hazardous outlets istalled outside. There are 240VAC luminaire poles fed by a Dp 30 AMP overcurrent protective device. The grounds maintenance supervisor was asked to run "Christmas" lights to all the trees that surround these lights. The sup. did this by installing an extension cord at the bottom of the pole, tied into one leg (only needed 120VAC) and a ground. There is not a neutral present in the circuit. They installed GFCI outlets with weather proof covers that give this the look of a safe and functional GFCI protected installation but this is not the case. There are also some of these installed close to the outdoor pool. Couldnt this allow objectionable current to "seep" into the ground as well as metal parts?

Thanks,
Pete
Master Electrician
VA

So You have outside lighting posts how far apart are they can you give me a little more information.. like are the poles grounded? because what they have done is make a GFCI into a miniature panel at each pole and or they have turned the EGC into a grounded service conductor. does that make sense???

 

[Transportation Guy]

Thanks. The poles are approx. 100' apart. There is a ground lug being utilized but i havent seen a grounding electrode. I have troubleshot a couple of free hours but havent fully investigated it due to them complaining about paying for this service. I found this problem when I installed some new conduit and cable between 2 poles that were not operating due to some bad 10/2 UF that was spliced a few different times and connected to #4 USE in the poles with wire nuts made for #8 cable.

Thanks.

 

[cschmid]

Oh My..I would tell them what types of violations they have and state that if you have to work on them you will be required to bring them to code compliance..Now if they call you regularly and you need the income be honest and let it go..Now are these wooden poles as sometimes the wire is buried along side the pole and is classified as the electrode..I do not make the rules and only state what I have seen and at no point am I endorsing the method, just stating the truth..this is a method used for a earth ground on lights mounted on a wooden pole that is used by the power company and are normally non metered.


added: In order to prove your point this would cost you business and in this economy every customer with cash counts so tread cautiously and remember you are trying to stay in business. So be careful on how you proceed remember the politics. I do not endorse non code installations but have learned how to choose my struggles..:grin:

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Not to mention that if something happens to cause an "open" in the grounding conductor, that they are using as a grounded conductor, all metallic parts of everthing using those EGC's are now going to become energized to line voltage.

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[cschmid]

You are very correct and the worse part is sticking your fingers in it makes you an accomplice even if just buy knowing..

 

[davet]

Bonding solves Light Flicker

Bonding solves Light Flicker

A mister know it all was told of lights flickering at a residence he was working. He bonded the hot water tank/gas line. FLickering stopped.I told him he has a potential problem of energizing all metal in the house due to a weak/corrosive neutral present.I told him that (I) would check all connections,wire,meter,panel, etc.and notify power co. if needed. He siad he would do that.
Was I right in my assumption? Any thoughts or insight.

 

[cowboyjwc]

If they used the ground as their neutral and if those poles are bonded like they should be, you could be greating a very serious hazard.

Sorry, I said "you" when I should have said "they".

 

[cschmid]

I believe we talking a different issue then the OP has posted correct..