25$ an outlet ??

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patrick

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I met with a small time builder today to go over plans to wire an addition,he insisted he should only pay 25 for the rough in outlet,I told him wire prices have more than doubled and gas is 267 a gallon and rising.He said he didn't wanna hear it,"I have been in the buisness 25yrs,how hard is it to rough in some outlets,I know what things cost". I would like to know if anyone,anywhere makes money off 25 an outlet in residential construction.I'm talking to legitimate contractors not helpers doing side work. This number seems low,been out of resi for a while.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

I haven't done residential in over 25 years, but with the attitude you are getting, you're better off sitting at home watching TV.

You could waist your time working for someone like this, or you could knock on doors finding work that you can make money on.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Its funny you mention that,I was thinking about how much money it would cost me to do his work or sit home and watch Miffy and 64 Zoo Lane with my daughter.Its leaning towards Miffy.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Patrick, call up all the ac/fridge contractors in your area and tell em you are now available for service work and feeder instals. You will find that they are more willing to pay you what you are worth rather than try to beat you up all the time. Then I want to hear your tires squeal as you burn rubber driving away from that cheapskate gc.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Originally posted by patrick:
"...I know what things cost".
Click to expand...
Does he KNOW what your overhead is?

He tipped his hand by telling you that - he let you know that he plans on calling the shots and telling you not only how to price a job, but also that you will have a hard time getting paid for any and all extras, changes, moves, etc and the final payment;the other trades and yourself will be falling over each other as he 'accelerates' the time schedule...and so on.

I charge more than $25/outlet. If the HO, GC,PO etc doesn't like my number they are free to price shop - the only way my number goes down is if THEY remove items. I do not play the "numbers game" where you give a hi-ball number only to reduce it by 10% so the customer thinks they are getting a deal.

I have walked away from many jobs this year (worked 32.43% of the jobs I have bidded). I would rather get paid what I am worth than allow the GC to profit (more) off me or allow a HO/PO to low ball me.

[ August 27, 2005, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: celtic ]
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Lot depends on how busy you are and if your a 1 man operation with low overhead.Getting all your bids says your too low .Getting 50% says your in the middle.If that builder was down here and doing volume track homes he would get it for that price.Here track homes are wired by $8 to $10 installers.Tell him quality costs.Where you live determines many things.
A trick i used on one builder for years always got me what i wanted.Figure out price you need then add 10%,let him talk you down 10 and all are happy.With some thats only way you can do buisness ;)
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Does the sign on your truck say Charity Electric??? No way would I start the truck for this price.

I know guys that do side work and get a lot more then this!

This is one of these cheap GCs that want everything for nothing and they reap a big profit off of the job. You know what you are worth, if someone doesn't like it they are free to call someone else.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Patrick
Just by coming here to ask, you already know that the price is way too low. I do not care what part of the country anyone lives in either.
The large companies like Sears, HomeDepot, Car Dealers - all charge the same price, as they are in it to make money. What about insurance, gas, $90.00 per hour to have my car worked on the other day + disposal charge and material charge yada, yada, yada.

Part of the issue here is we are electricians who have become business men, not businessmen who have become ECs.
The ECs who act like businessmen seem to always do well - especially the higher priced ones.

How come we can wire the homes, but do not make enough money to live in the communities we work in????

FEAR OF SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

I remember my boss getting $35.00 an opening... 15 years ago. BAck then we were getting beaten out of bids by side jobbers and fly by nights bidding at $27.00 - $30.00 an opening. A lot has changed since then, both in material prices and in what is typically installed in a home. The price necessarily goes up.

As for me, I won't get out of bed for $25.00 an opening. I think you need to walk away and let this GC find an electrician that is not overly fond of food and shelter.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

I just finished a kitchen remodel, with a total of 14 outlets on 7 new circuits: 8 countertop, 2 undercab lights, 1 fridge, 1 dishwasher/disposal split-wired, 1 range, 1 microwave. Also put in a 12-space subpanel next to the main. Total cost was $2310, including the $60 permit and all materials. Subpanel job is about $400 for me, so that means the receptacle install was about $1850. Divide that by 14, and it was closer to $125/outlet. The job was seven blocks from my house.

It doesn't matter if the GC thinks he "knows" how much things cost. If he thinks your prices are too high, he's welcome to find some other chump. I'd find another way to make a living if I could only get $25/outlet.

Celtic is right -- This is a GC you want to walk away from.

[ August 27, 2005, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: jeff43222 ]
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

New homes just built on my street, GC wants $275 from owner as an extra to install one outlet, the construction is still open frame, the EC that is working there told me he gets $60 per opening, but as of this date has not been paid, no payment for 3 months, GC keeps telling him , it's comming, he said he can't leave the job he has too much time invested, he has to wait and hope he pays.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Originally posted by satcom:
New homes just built on my street, GC wants $275 from owner as an extra to install one outlet, the construction is still open frame, the EC that is working there told me he gets $60 per opening, but as of this date has not been paid, no payment for 3 months, GC keeps telling him , it's comming, he said he can't leave the job he has too much time invested, he has to wait and hope he pays.
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Sounds like the GC makes a lot more on the electrical work than the EC does, especially since the EC puts in outlets for free.

I got burned that way once. Now I get progress payments where I get paid most of my money by the time I pass rough-in.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Very simple small job not many outlets so it won't take long that is all correct. But here is facts and figures Say 5 outlets at 25 dollars an outlet so job cost 125 dollars, permit fee application 35 dollars plus circuit charge 5 dollars plus lighting circuit 6 dollars plus final inspection chare 35 dollars total permit fee for job 81 dollars 125 minus 81 equals 44 dollars then this job will take three trips 1 to estimate for materials and permit, 2 to rough-in and 3 to finish and possibly two more if inspector wants you there for inspections possible miles one way guessing at 15 miles times at least six times equals 90 miles probably 10 miles to the gallon so there is 9 gallons at 2.65 a gallon almost 25 dollars so now you have 19 dollars for materials 12-2 w.g. nm. is 48 dollars for 250 feet the single pole circuit breaker cost 5 dollars the boxes and devices another 5 dollars the luminaire 20 dollars there you have 78 dollars so now you are 59 dollars in the hole this job will take 4 hours to rough 1 hour to trim 1 hour to estimate and driving time 3 hours for total hours 9 hours times 50 dollars a hour for 450 dollars so now your 509 dollars in the red on a small job. Final figure on the job 634 dollars cost for 125 dollars. This is no way to make money.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

I don't believe you can compare a 2400 square foot rough-in to a "5 hole" rough-in, or a 14 hole remodel.

Once you're dealing with an efficient crew, a steady builder, and a tract-house with 160-200 holes in it, $25/hole isn't so bad:

180 holes @ $25 hole = $4500
Labor = $1440 rough and trim

That leaves $3060 for materials and permits. Since it's a new house, chances are the builder has needed to pull the permit, depending on the rules of the area you're in.

$3060 for overhead and materials seems sufficient.

I see it like this: When you go to the hardware store and buy a 25' box of romex, you pay more per unit than if you make arrangements and purchase a pallet of romex.

Remodeling is like selling a customer $25 boxes of romex. It costs more per unit (hour of time, or hole, take your pick), because of economy of scale multiplied by difficulty of work.

Roughing and trimming tract homes is like selling the GC a pallet of romex. Much production can be achieved in a short period, leading to a smaller overall cost per unit to the GC than if he called and said, "I'd like you to drive out and rough-in the kitchen of this house, wait, and then come back and rough-in the living room, wait, and then..." You'd charge outlandish prices for such an arrangement, because of the massive travel time, unload/load time, etc.

For a simple home, what is a fair price? You can't tell me you guys charge remodeling prices for new work. If that's true, and you do service work/remodeling exclusively, perhaps that's why.

I am just trying to get some more perspective, not trying to pick a fight or anything.

It's all well and good to say "$35 a hole is fair", but without a clear understanding of how much it costs to rough a hole, at what scale, it all sounds a little subjective. If your overhead is unnaturally or unnecessarily high, who's fault is that? :)
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Originally posted by patrick:
I met with a small time builder today to go over plans to wire an addition,he insisted he should only pay 25 for the rough in outlet,I told him wire prices have more than doubled and gas is 267 a gallon and rising.He said he didn't wanna hear it,"I have been in the buisness 25yrs,how hard is it to rough in some outlets,I know what things cost". I would like to know if anyone,anywhere makes money off 25 an outlet in residential construction.I'm talking to legitimate contractors not helpers doing side work. This number seems low,been out of resi for a while.
Click to expand...
He also tipped his hat getting irate with you. He keeps hearing the same thing, not what he wants, and it's getting him annoyed.

I'd be concerned and review my pricing if he just giggled and showed you the door.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Do we all agree on an amount of time to rough and trim an average branch receptacle is between 20 minutes and half hour ? 20 being for the easy ones like wood walls and receptacle is 6 feet from last one to 30 minutes for a block wall ?
Seems the price needs broke down to time and marterial first,then the hourly rate you need for the man doing the work.One man with van ,office at home in garage has advantage over the one with a shop,rent,electric,staff,etc.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

I would agree, for tract homes, that 30 minutes per opening would be the maximum for a competent crew working in homes that are familiar.

Around here, that number can get as low as 17 minutes per opening or better, with an experienced residential journeyman working alone.

To be clear, that's the whole deal: lights, service, switches and outlets, done.
 
Re: 25$ an outlet ??

Will admit my production goes up with when working alone and home is empty and clean.My record for triming recepts was 2 minutes but could only hold that speed for about an hour.
 
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