250.52(A)(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode

Status
Not open for further replies.
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
Here in NY, we reference the 2002 NEC for dwellings and the 2005 NEC for other occupancies.

A couple of questions.

1. How many jurisdictions out there are enforcing 250.52(A)(3)?

2. If you are enforcing this section, how is it being performed?
a. via the building official during a footing inspection
or
b. the electrical inspector is performing the inspection.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
1. How many jurisdictions out there are enforcing 250.52(A)(3)?
Click to expand...

MA is.

2. If you are enforcing this section, how is it being performed?
a. via the building official during a footing inspection
or
b. the electrical inspector is performing the inspection.
Click to expand...

EC must do the work, EI must look at it and if that is not done the GC may have a very bad day.

If its a new footing for new construction and it has qualifying steel then it 'is available' even if that means breaking concrete.
 
Around here EC installs it, building inspector checks it during footing inspection.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
1. How many jurisdictions out there are enforcing 250.52(A)(3)?

2. If you are enforcing this section, how is it being performed?
a. via the building official during a footing inspection
or
b. the electrical inspector is performing the inspection.
Click to expand...
\

1) Most here have been enforcing the use of CEEs since the '96 NEC
2) Building inspector. No CEE, no pre-pour footer inspection.
 
The Residential Code of NYS, based on the 2002 NEC, applies to 1 & 2 Family Dwellings and Townhouses and the language for CEE's is "where available".This language does not necessitate that the electrode be made available, just means where it is available to use it.
However for all other buildings, (other than 1 & 2 family Dwellings and Townhouses) NY uses the 2005 which uses the language "where present" which means that the CEE has to be used...no ifs, ands, or buts. :smile:
 
wbalsam1 said:
The Residential Code of NYS, based on the 2002 NEC, applies to 1 & 2 Family Dwellings and Townhouses and the language for CEE's is "where available".This language does not necessitate that the electrode be made available, just means where it is available to use it.
However for all other buildings, (other than 1 & 2 family Dwellings and Townhouses) NY uses the 2005 which uses the language "where present" which means that the CEE has to be used...no ifs, ands, or buts. :smile:
Click to expand...



Fred
I am sure you know why I am asking this question.
You are saying that this is being enforced upstate in your jurisdiction?
If so, who is making the inspection?
How did you get this info to your ECs?
 
iwire said:
MA is.



EC must do the work, EI must look at it and if that is not done the GC may have a very bad day.

If its a new footing for new construction and it has qualifying steel then it 'is available' even if that means breaking concrete.
Click to expand...


Bob
Have you seen or heard of others having issues with this topic?
I am curious, because only one jurisdiction that I am aware of in the area we cover (more than 80 jurisdictions) is enforcing this requirement. I am being told "don't worry about it".
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Fred
I am sure you know why I am asking this question.
You are saying that this is being enforced upstate in your jurisdiction?
If so, who is making the inspection?
How did you get this info to your ECs?
Click to expand...

No one, to my knowledge is requiring any CEE's to be made a part of the GES with regard to 1 & 2 Family Dwellings and Townhouses, since it is not required in the 2002 or the RCNYS. To enforce something that is not required would qualify an inspector to be noted on another thread that is currently running on this forum. :grin:

With regard to buildings subject to the 2005 NEC, the 3rd party electrical inspectors have to keep an eye on it, because the building inspectors have not received proper (if any) training on this code requirement. Some area electrical inspectors are not currently in-the-know enough to require this.
 
wbalsam1 said:
No one, to my knowledge is requiring any CEE's to be made a part of the GES with regard to 1 & 2 Family Dwellings and Townhouses, since it is not required in the 2002 or the RCNYS. To enforce something that is not required would qualify an inspector to be noted on another thread that is currently running on this forum. :grin:

With regard to buildings subject to the 2005 NEC, the 3rd party electrical inspectors have to keep an eye on it, because the building inspectors have not received proper (if any) training on this code requirement. Some area electrical inspectors are not currently in-the-know enough to require this.
Click to expand...

Fred
Are you performing the CEE inspections? or, because the BOs do not really understand/care, it is not a "requirement" being properly enforced?

I understand this requirement is not for the residential sector of our inspections.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Fred
Are you performing the CEE inspections? or, because the BOs do not really understand/care, it is not a "requirement" being properly enforced?

I understand this requirement is not for the residential sector of our inspections.
Click to expand...

Yes. I am enforcing this requirement out of the 2005. I have created training seminars through the Department of State, and through the private inspection agency that I work for and have instructed back as far as 2003 that this CEE business was coming. I almost had tomatoes thrown at me when I would stand up in front of a group of electricians and warn them on what was to come.:grin:

Building inspectors would receive 4 CEU's for attending the classes, and yet all these years later....well, so many have been "blind-sided".

But as you know, Pierre, I do not have the authority vested in me to waive the requirements of the code...therefore I require that the CEE be made a part of the GES as prescribed by the 05 NEC.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Bob
Have you seen or heard of others having issues with this topic?
Click to expand...


All I really know came from code class handout. It was from the states building official and it went out to GCs explain the new rules of the 2005 and that the GC is responsible to make sure an EC is hired, an electrical permit is pulled and an electrical sign off by the EI.

It went on to explain that even if an EC is has not yet been awarded the entire project that the GC will have to have EC out to do the the CEE. It also mentioned failure to do so may be costly as the footing may need to be broken up.

On a side note..


It really surprises me how many guys want to see this work left to the concrete guys, might as well let the pool guys do the pool bonding as well. :mad:

This is electrical work being ignored and given away IMHO.
 
iwire said:
It really surprises me how many guys want to see this work left to the concrete guys, might as well let the pool guys do the pool bonding as well. :mad:

This is electrical work being ignored and given away IMHO.
Click to expand...

I agree! The thing is the electrode really has a specific purpose; other crafts are not qualified because they do not understand its purpose. Heck anyone can add a receptacle or install some 220 wire :grin:, but the electrician knows how and why.

Around here (central California) the inspectors are not specialty per say, although they may know more about some areas than others and often one call does it all. Residentially most GC?s will provide this through their concrete contractor. :mad:

I would like to see the inspections strict to the NEC, and if failed the inspector simply reply ?your electrical contractor knows this?. I don?t believe the inspector owes any correction procedure other than ?it must be installed as per Article 250 part III, and the additional trip to re-inspect will cost $???.??? (BIG NUMBER)
 
tryinghard said:
I agree! The thing is the electrode really has a specific purpose; other crafts are not qualified because they do not understand its purpose. Heck anyone can add a receptacle or install some 220 wire :grin:, but the electrician knows how and why.
Click to expand...

"To make a substantial profit." ;)
 
To answer the OP's question, in Honolulu, it is in your best interest to fax in an inspection request for the cee before the concrete is poured whether you are using a turned up 20 foot long rebar, or connecting a conductor to the rebar in the footing and snaking that up out of the footing. If you don't you could be in the chipping and sawcutting business shortly. A couple of the inspectors will let you take a picture of the setup before the pour and just show that to them later, but you still better have the proper connector and do the job right or they won't let it go. I have heard about a few examples of "go find the rebar" getting told to electrical contractors who were not educated in 250.52 2005 NEC which is still in effect here.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top