2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
- Thread starter chip715
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
If the outlet is outside and at a dwelling unit 210.8(A)(3) requires it to be GFCI protected.
If the outlet is outside and at a dwelling unit 210.8(A)(3) requires it to be GFCI protected.
rcarroll
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
GFI protection is required. 210.8(A)(3)
GFI protection is required. 210.8(A)(3)
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
I believe the intent of the 210.8 section is to provide protection to persons whom use electrical applainces and equipment that is intimate in nature or handheld.
I just wonder what uses are likely on a second floor balcony or patio. Its highly unlikely that yard tools will be served. I can't really think of any other appliances that would seem likely either. Most 2nd balconies and patios I have evber come across might have a lamp even maybe a small TV plugged in.
I tend to follow code and read code for its word for word requirement, but sometimes intent is important to understand application. I just wonder if the intent of "outside" really meant this particular situation.
I believe the intent of the 210.8 section is to provide protection to persons whom use electrical applainces and equipment that is intimate in nature or handheld.
I just wonder what uses are likely on a second floor balcony or patio. Its highly unlikely that yard tools will be served. I can't really think of any other appliances that would seem likely either. Most 2nd balconies and patios I have evber come across might have a lamp even maybe a small TV plugged in.
I tend to follow code and read code for its word for word requirement, but sometimes intent is important to understand application. I just wonder if the intent of "outside" really meant this particular situation.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
I think this section could not be more clear.
I think this section could not be more clear.
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
Okay, please explain. What would make this particular receptacle outlet in need of GFCI protection considering its location and use? Would you consider a receptacle on the second floor balcony of a building as having the same potential hazards as one on a ground level?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
Please explain why standing on a wet porch floor located on the second floor while turning on a lamp is any safer then doing the same thing on a ground level porch?
The CMP could have said outdoor outlets with grade level access, they did not.
The CMP could have added more exceptions to this section in addition to the heat trace exception, they did not.
IMO this means they intended all outdoor outlets at dwelling units to be GFCI protected.
Would you like to see this section bloated with exceptions?
JMO, Bob
[ July 15, 2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Please explain why standing on a wet porch floor located on the second floor while turning on a lamp is any safer then doing the same thing on a ground level porch?
The CMP could have said outdoor outlets with grade level access, they did not.
The CMP could have added more exceptions to this section in addition to the heat trace exception, they did not.
IMO this means they intended all outdoor outlets at dwelling units to be GFCI protected.
Would you like to see this section bloated with exceptions?
JMO, Bob
[ July 15, 2004, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
And what about metal siding, down spouts. yes I agree they are needed.
I vote yes
And what about metal siding, down spouts. yes I agree they are needed.
I vote yes
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
Bryan:
I don't follow your reasoning here. If the need for outdoor GFCI's has anything to do with grade level, why does (B)(2) require them for commercial rooftops. I would prefer to see almost all outdoor outlets GFCI protected. I would think there should be more requirements for commercial outlets near sinks.
STeve
Bryan:
I don't follow your reasoning here. If the need for outdoor GFCI's has anything to do with grade level, why does (B)(2) require them for commercial rooftops. I would prefer to see almost all outdoor outlets GFCI protected. I would think there should be more requirements for commercial outlets near sinks.
STeve
bphgravity
Senior Member
- Location
- Florida
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
My questioning has nothing to do with grade level, it has to do with intended use of the receptacle in question.
Lets look at 210.8 and consider the probable loads.
</font>
So now, consider a second floor patio or balcony. What loads similar to the ones above are likely to be used there? All those above are personal and handheld in nature. I doubt these types of utilization equipment will be used in the location of a second floor or higher outdoor location.
I'm not arguing that the code doesn't apply there, I agree it does. I just question the issue for the sake of discussion. I also don't like exceptions on top of exceptions, and feel extra safety is better than minimal safety. But really, if outdoors is so important for GFCI protection, than why doesn't the NEC require non-dwelling outdoor receptacles to be GFCI protected?
My questioning has nothing to do with grade level, it has to do with intended use of the receptacle in question.
Lets look at 210.8 and consider the probable loads.
</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">bathrooms - hair dryers, curling irons, shavers, etc...
garages - hand tools, power tools, lawn equipment, etc...
outdoors - yard tools, trimmers, cutters, extension cords, etc...
kitchens - blenders, mixers, toasters, etc..
rooftops - hand tools, extension cords, etc..</font>
So now, consider a second floor patio or balcony. What loads similar to the ones above are likely to be used there? All those above are personal and handheld in nature. I doubt these types of utilization equipment will be used in the location of a second floor or higher outdoor location.
I'm not arguing that the code doesn't apply there, I agree it does. I just question the issue for the sake of discussion. I also don't like exceptions on top of exceptions, and feel extra safety is better than minimal safety. But really, if outdoors is so important for GFCI protection, than why doesn't the NEC require non-dwelling outdoor receptacles to be GFCI protected?
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
Hi Bryan. I'm shooting from the lip here, so take it for what its worth, but I think I recall reading the ROP/ROC that there will more than likely be a 210.8(B)(4) for exterior receptacles with public access at grade level for other than dwelling units. It almost seems to support your position!
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
Maybe they should just put it on an AFCI if they get to this porch through the bedroom closet.
I just look at this as efficient code making, it is not much of a hardship and now we do not have a bunch of exceptions to work around.
Maybe part of our differences on this is I picture in my head a porch with no roof (deck balcony whatever) maybe you picture a covered porch.
IMO any place where you handle electric equipment on a wet surface deserves a GFCI. Even if that handling is not intimate.
Why is this not a commercial requirement?
There are a lot of things we can do in commercial spaces that we can not in dwellings.
I have also read what Ryan has said and I hope that happens, GFCIs are cheap and semi reliable.
Maybe they should just put it on an AFCI if they get to this porch through the bedroom closet.
I just look at this as efficient code making, it is not much of a hardship and now we do not have a bunch of exceptions to work around.
Maybe part of our differences on this is I picture in my head a porch with no roof (deck balcony whatever) maybe you picture a covered porch.
IMO any place where you handle electric equipment on a wet surface deserves a GFCI. Even if that handling is not intimate.
Why is this not a commercial requirement?
There are a lot of things we can do in commercial spaces that we can not in dwellings.
I have also read what Ryan has said and I hope that happens, GFCIs are cheap and semi reliable.
- Location
- Bremerton, Washington
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
Iwire: In washington state we use the requirements of 210.8 for all occupancies. IE if its a requiment in a single family dwelling for GFCI, then a gfci is required for any location or occupancy type...
And the state says that bubble covers are not required for temp services, recognizing they are prone to breakage.
[ July 16, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: tom baker ]
Iwire: In washington state we use the requirements of 210.8 for all occupancies. IE if its a requiment in a single family dwelling for GFCI, then a gfci is required for any location or occupancy type...
And the state says that bubble covers are not required for temp services, recognizing they are prone to breakage.
[ July 16, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: tom baker ]
A
a.wayne3@verizon.net
Guest
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
Didn`t a simple post turn into a long thread,I would say GFCI protected.I agree that there is no difference between 2nd floor porch and a grade level receptacle.Rain is rain no matter where.Lets say the receptacle is for a tv mounted on a bracket since continiously plugged in ,bubble covered or subject to direct water run off if that is the case bubble also.What about soffit receptacles.Bubble covered too...Gets pricey but that`s in the NEC.Word for word ???To gray to do that in many cases.But that`s what makes our trade challenging.
Didn`t a simple post turn into a long thread,I would say GFCI protected.I agree that there is no difference between 2nd floor porch and a grade level receptacle.Rain is rain no matter where.Lets say the receptacle is for a tv mounted on a bracket since continiously plugged in ,bubble covered or subject to direct water run off if that is the case bubble also.What about soffit receptacles.Bubble covered too...Gets pricey but that`s in the NEC.Word for word ???To gray to do that in many cases.But that`s what makes our trade challenging.
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
Occupants of dwelling units will use electrical equipment on the balcony including holiday/christmas lighting. 210.8 requires GFCI protection. As for the association with grade level or kitchen counter requirements, the argument is mute because where the homeowner(hence dwelling unit) is encountered, there is no limit to the possible scenarios for shock hazard.
Occupants of dwelling units will use electrical equipment on the balcony including holiday/christmas lighting. 210.8 requires GFCI protection. As for the association with grade level or kitchen counter requirements, the argument is mute because where the homeowner(hence dwelling unit) is encountered, there is no limit to the possible scenarios for shock hazard.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
This thread is a good example for one of the reasons why the NEC is so complex. As time passes, the questions become more detailed, so the code does develop for that need. More people are asking more questions, take a look at the number of proposals as the code has developed, they have increased as well. Look at all of the sites for discussion and how these have grown
Pierre
This thread is a good example for one of the reasons why the NEC is so complex. As time passes, the questions become more detailed, so the code does develop for that need. More people are asking more questions, take a look at the number of proposals as the code has developed, they have increased as well. Look at all of the sites for discussion and how these have grown
Pierre
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: 2ND STORY RECEPTACALES
Joe,
Joe,
Don
- Status