3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

[jbeale]

I'm moving into a new apartment. The building was built in the 1950s but (allegedly) inspected and updated "to code" in early 1990s.

I noticed one of the electrical sockets was hanging out of the wall slightly, and looking behind it I could see that (1) it was not connected in any way to any metal box and (2) it was hanging by only two wires (that is, there was no ground wire). This was a modern three-prong outlet, which I think should be grounded, yes?

Currently this city (Mountain View CA) calls out the NEC 1999 in their building electrical code.
http://bpc.iserver.net/codes/mtnview/_DATA/TITLE08/ARTICLE_IV__ELECTRICAL_CODE_/SEC__8_70__National_Electrical.html

The landlord claims the apartment is "up to code", I'd just like your confirmation that this situation cannot possibly be up to code. I am not a licensed electrician in any region so of course I will not be performing any needed repair work myself.

 

[petersonra]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

being "up to code" does not mean it meets the latest version of the code.

in essence, it means it met the code at the time of installation. the code recognizes that the code changes over time, and allows that new work is to be done per the current version, while not requiring remedial work to change existing installations. this is commonly called grandfathering.

think of it this way - the vast majority of your electrical appliances only have two prongs anyway.

unless there is some reason to believe otherwise, I would accept your landlord's statement at face value.

I am a little concerned about being able to see inside the outlet boxes though. if you can see inside them, you or a child might well be able to stick something inside the box he or she should not.

[ July 14, 2005, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: petersonra ]

 

[arjo_reich]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by petersonra:
think of it this way - the vast majority of your electrical appliances only have two prongs anyway.

Technically though, wouldn't those receptacles required to be two prong receptacles (without a ground connector) since there is no available ground in place?

To me it reads like a 20 AMP 120v receptacle being installed on a 15 AMP circuit. The device is misleading the rating of the circuit.

---
For the original poster: Remember, even though you *can* plug in grounded appliance cords (3-prong cords) these devices will not be truly grounded and for sensitive electronics such as your computer, this could cause damage.

 

[petersonra]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by arjo_reich:

Originally posted by petersonra:
think of it this way - the vast majority of your electrical appliances only have two prongs anyway.

Technically though, wouldn't those receptacles required to be two prong receptacles (without a ground connector) since there is no available ground in place?

To me it reads like a 20 AMP 120v receptacle being installed on a 15 AMP circuit. The device is misleading the rating of the circuit.

---
For the original poster: Remember, even though you *can* plug in grounded appliance cords (3-prong cords) these devices will not be truly grounded and for sensitive electronics such as your computer, this could cause damage.

If you have a 20A outlet on a 15A circuit, there is no hazard. If you overload the circuit, the CB will just trip. It's a bad idea and probably not to code, but not a hazard.

2 wire outlets are no longer made, so when repairs are made, they often install a new one with three holes. I seem to recall you are supposed to mark these in some way, but it is no more of a hazard than plugging your 3 prong plug into a 3/2 prong adapter first.

personally, i do no buy that you can damage anything by plugging it into a 2 wire plug (w/o a ground). the ground really does not protect the electronics in any substantial way.

 

[physis]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

I think the non-grounding receptacles are available. I almost never need one so I might be out of date on that but I've accidently ended up with some not long ago.

As far as "up to code" it's not uncommon that someone is hired to tidy up things like the receptacles and repairs some of them instead of all of them, or repairs them by illegally installing grounding receptacles with no ground.

And the ground wont protect sensitive electronics. Unless there's something I'm forgetting about, but I don't think so.

Edit: Error B

[ July 14, 2005, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

First off it is a serious violation to install a grounded 3 prong receptacle where a ground is not available.If the ground prong is there then it must be grounded.There are 2 prong outlets still available.One possability that might make this install legal is if its a self grounding receptacle.But that only works if the metal box is already grounded.Simply do this,go to home depot and buy a plug tester (cost about $5).Now plug it in and read the code.If it says OPEN GROUND there is a problem that must be fixed.And it can damage some electrical equipment.If equipment come with a 3 prong there is a reason.They did not just like to spend more money

[ July 14, 2005, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
First off it is a serious violation to install a grounded 3 prong receptacle where a ground is not available.

Is it?

You might want to check the in NEC on that one.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Bob,the only exception is if you put a gfci outlet in and tag it as no equipment ground.To supply a ground at a receptacle that is not there could land you in court.Are you suggesting that all it takes is a 3 prong outlet change out to have a ground ? I know your smarter than that.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Are you suggesting that all it takes is a 3 prong outlet change out to have a ground ?

No, I am stating that you may replace 2 wire outlets with 3 wire outlets.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Only if you run a ground wire to it.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Only if you run a ground wire to it.

What if I add a GFCI somewhere on the circuit?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

OK i see where your going with this.I know you can put in a gfci receptacle .Can it have slaves ? If so where in the code does it permit this ?

 

[arjo_reich]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by jimwalker:
Only if you run a ground wire to it.

What if I add a GFCI somewhere on the circuit?

God this strikes close to home. Here's my houses current situation...

Bedrooms are not grounded, nor are their ceiling fans. Bedrooms are down line from the GFCI in the bathroom.

GFCI trips, lights go out. Turn lights on, GFCI thinks it's a ground fault, lights go out. It's funny for about ten seconds.

I debated just rewiring the GFCI so that it was not wired through the load side, but figured I'd rather fix the problem at it's source rather than a patch fix.

[ July 14, 2005, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: arjo_reich ]

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
.Can it have slaves ? If so where in the code does it permit this ?

It could be a GFCI breaker or a GFCI receptacle, that is up to you.

406.3(D)(3)(c)

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Thanks Bob i had the first part even highlighted but had missed the rest.I do see it as safe but have doughts about them paper stickers staying on.This might be a cheap way out for some of them older homes that have 3 prong without a ground.A few $40 breakers would be lot faster than changing them back to 2 prongs.Just how could we test them ? With there being no ground, the plug tester gfci tester might not work.

 

[romeo]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

That 3 wire receptacle must be a replacement for a 2 wire receptacle, that is a violation. Look at section 406.3 (3) (A) (B) (C) in the 2002 code.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I know you can put in a gfci receptacle. Can it have slaves?

Code requirements specify, for example, that a receptacle must have GFCI protection, but I've never seen the device itself specified.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by LarryFine:

Originally posted by jimwalker:
I know you can put in a gfci receptacle. Can it have slaves?

Code requirements specify, for example, that a receptacle must have GFCI protection, but I've never seen the device itself specified.

In fact,

NEC-2002 406.3(D)(3)(c) A nongrounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permit-ted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked ?GFCI Protected? and ?No Equipment Ground.? An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.

This explicitly permits regular grounding receptacles to be supplied on the load side of a GFCI.

Note, (b) lays out the requirements for a GFCI receptacle replacing a two-wire recep, and (c) lays out the requirements for a regular grounding receptacle replacement.

I'd say this is one of the few spots in the code that gives a fig about the actual device at a given point, as Larry mentioned.

 

[LarryFine]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Would be non-compliant if such a circuit were protected by a GFCI breaker, as opposed to receptacle?

I wonder why (b) specifies a GFCI receptacle.

(c) defintely does not specify whether a GFCI receptacle or GFCI breaker must be used.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Would be non-compliant if such a circuit were protected by a GFCI breaker, as opposed to receptacle?

I wonder why (b) specifies a GFCI receptacle.

(c) defintely does not specify whether a GFCI receptacle or GFCI breaker must be used.

If you installed a GFI breaker, it would be persuant to (c).

If you installed a GFCI receptacle, that specific receptacle outlet would be persuant to (b).

If you load side out to a grounding-type receptacle from a GFCI receptacle, the load side receptacles would be installed persuant to (c).

Doesn't matter what you do, as long as it's one of the methods in (a), (b), or (c).