3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

[LarryFine]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by georgestolz:

Originally posted by LarryFine:
Would be non-compliant if such a circuit were protected by a GFCI breaker, as opposed to receptacle?

I wonder why (b) specifies a GFCI receptacle.

(c) defintely does not specify whether a GFCI receptacle or GFCI breaker must be used.

If you installed a GFI breaker, it would be persuant to (c).

If you installed a GFCI receptacle, that specific receptacle outlet would be persuant to (b).

If you load side out to a grounding-type receptacle from a GFCI receptacle, the load side receptacles would be installed persuant to (c).

Doesn't matter what you do, as long as it's one of the methods in (a), (b), or (c).

So, does that mean that we have the option to use a GFCI breaker or GFCI receptacle in any case, or is there a condition in which a GFCI receptacle must be used?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

So, does that mean that we have the option to use a GFCI breaker or GFCI receptacle in any case...

Right.

...or is there a condition in which a GFCI receptacle must be used?

All it comes down to is, the GFI is readily identifiable as a GFI without labelling it, IMO.

So, innocent looking duplexes need to be labelled, "GFI protected", whereas the buttons on the face of GFI do all the talking.

 

[physis]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

I wonder what the hazard is in not having the label?

 

[hurk27]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

By Sam: I wonder what the hazard is in not having the label?

I guess it allow the user to know if the receptacles have a grounding conductor when a manufacture of the appliance requires one in the manufactures instructions.

 

[roger]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by LarryFine:
is there a condition in which a GFCI receptacle must be used?

Yes there is, but not in article 406, see 620.85


Roger

 

[LarryFine]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by georgestolz:
So, innocent looking duplexes need to be labelled, "GFI protected", whereas the buttons on the face of GFI do all the talking.

Let us not forget that non-grounded grounding receptacles also need to be labeled that they do not provide grounding. That's why the little stickers are packaged with GFCI's.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

"Let us not forget that non-grounded grounding receptacles also need to be labeled that they do not provide grounding. That's why the little stickers are packaged with GFCI's. "

And if we are lucky they stay there for maybe a year.What's the point in allowing a 3 prong receptacle to be installed if it has no ground ? When that sticker comes off how will we know if it's grounded or not ?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Better question: is the customer going to
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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">understand what it means?</font>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">not scratch the labels off when we walk out the door?</font>

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[physis]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

By Larry:

Let us not forget that non-grounded grounding receptacles also need to be labeled that they do not provide grounding. That's why the little stickers are packaged with GFCI's.

I know they have the GFCI protected stickers but do they have stickers for not grounded receptacles with them?

 

[George Stolz]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Yeah, they do. I have a "No Equipment Ground" sticker on my tailgate. Somebody thought it was funny. I'm too lazy to stratch it off.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

they usually have stickers that say no equipment ground.
I have seen stickers removed even before a final inspection.I personally can not understand nec allowing a 3 prong other than a gfci receptacle.Why would we install it ? The non grounded ones sit on big orange shelves

[ July 16, 2005, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[physis]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

I'm surprised we don't have to use a plate that has the words molded into it. I wouldn't even mind really if it didn't have to be ugly and they didn't end up costing $3.00 cause they're "special" when they're only worth a dime.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by physis:
I'm surprised we don't have to use a plate that has the words molded into it.

You can always have engraved plates made.

We have done some jobs where each receptacle and switch plate had to have the panel and circuit designation engraved on them.

Can you say major PITA. :roll:

[ July 16, 2005, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]

 

[roger]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Bob, one hospital we work at has this requirement for phenolic labels on all devices too.

I have actually had upwards of $1000.00 in labels for a given project.


Roger

 

[physis]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

You can always have engraved plates made.

I don't want to be the guy who has to make them.

It's just that Jim's right. Those stickers really don't stand a chance.

Edit: It's actually pretty close to silly.

[ July 16, 2005, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: physis ]

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by roger:
Bob, one hospital we work at has this requirement for phenolic labels on all devices too.

I am sure the office tried using phenolic labels.

A couple of collages we did required engraved, black filled lettering on stainless steel plates.

I was not involved but I can not imagine producing the list of different lettering and plate combinations. I am willing to bet some in house maintenance guy requested this be put in the contract and everyone went for it without considering what we had to charge for this.

 

[physis]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Now I need a gremlin that's looking at the floor shaking his head.

I don't know about the rest of the country but out here there isn't enough money in the world to support the schools.

 

[iwire]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

Originally posted by physis:
I don't know about the rest of the country but out here there isn't enough money in the world to support the schools.

Not to worry these where privately funded schools without money troubles.

Still a waste, we often use a P-Touch labeler with black on clear tape on office building receptacles and they look fine.

 

[physis]

Re: 3-hole outlet in apt. ungrounded?

That's great then. It would be really nice to do it that way where the money comes from volentary sources. As long as it's not a failing tax funded system.