3 phase 4 wire

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mdecastro

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San diego
I am working on a 3ph 4 wire system. I have a 60 amp main breaker. Does it mean I can load 60amp on A ph, 60 amp on B ph, and 60 amp on C ph? Or does it mean that I can only put 60amps total for A, B, and C phase?

My question is, for a 3ph 4 wire circuit with 60amps main breaker, does it mean I have available 60 amps or 180amp?

Please include proof, calculation formula or NEC reference. I'm lost... thank you
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
60 amps on each "phase". Say you have 208/120 volts- you could have 10 amps A to neutral loads, 15 amps B to neutral loads, 12 amps C to neutral loads, and a 40 amp three phase load - that would give you net of 50 on A, 55 on B, and 52 on C.

Add another 20 amp load to neutral on any line and that line goes over your 60 amp main breaker - will trip if loaded for long enough duration - if you had fuses instead of a breaker you would only blow the one fuse that sees an overload.
 
I am working on a 3ph 4 wire system. I have a 60 amp main breaker. Does it mean I can load 60amp on A ph, 60 amp on B ph, and 60 amp on C ph? Or does it mean that I can only put 60amps total for A, B, and C phase?

My question is, for a 3ph 4 wire circuit with 60amps main breaker, does it mean I have available 60 amps or 180amp?

Please include proof, calculation formula or NEC reference. I'm lost... thank you

The amp rating is per pole - each pole and each conductor will handle 60 amps. What is the total available amps for single phase loads? Well say this is a 120/208 system, then you could have 180 amps of single phase 120V loads, if evenly balanced. For line to line single phase loads it is a little more complicated because of the phase angles. You can always keep it straight by converting to volt-amps. 208X60X1.732=21615 VA total. So take that and divide by 208 (volts line to line) and you get 104 amps of 208V line to line single phase loads. Keep in mind those single phase loads would have to be evenly balanced across the three phases and that is often not possible.

Finally note "3ph 4 wire" could be a center tapped delta system. In that case the available line to neutral capacity would depend on the transformer arrangement.
 

infinity

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Staff member
Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
I am working on a 3ph 4 wire system. I have a 60 amp main breaker. Does it mean I can load 60amp on A ph, 60 amp on B ph, and 60 amp on C ph? Or does it mean that I can only put 60amps total for A, B, and C phase?

My question is, for a 3ph 4 wire circuit with 60amps main breaker, does it mean I have available 60 amps or 180amp?

Please include proof, calculation formula or NEC reference. I'm lost... thank you

If the system is 208Y/120 you can 3-60 amp, 120 volt circuits one on each phase.
 

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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This part may be a bit tough to grasp. But there is no such thing as a “total current” in a three phase system. Yes, you can serve 60 amps of single phase line-to-neutral load from a 60 amp breaker, and yes that means you have a total single phase load of 180 amps. That, however, does not mean that the breaker is seeing a “total current” of 180 amps. The three phases are separated from each other, in time, by one third of a cycle. So when phase A is at its positive peak, both phases B and C have negative currents, and they are at one half of their negative peak.

Here is what that means. 60 amps of current is leaving the phase A leg of the 60 amp breaker. It runs through the 60 amp single phase load. It returns to the panel on the neutral wire. At that same moment, 30 amps of current is leaving the panel via the neutral wire associated with the B phase load. That current goes “backwards” through the 60 amp load on the B phase, and returns to the panel via the phase B leg of the breaker. Phase C does the same thing at that moment as phase B.

Now look at it from the perspective of the upstream transformer’s secondary windings. The three neutral currents described above cancel each other out. The wire between the panel’s neutral bar and the transformer’s neutral point does not see any current. The current leaving the transformer’s phase A goes through the phase A load. Half of it returns to the transformer via the phase B load, and the other half through the phase C load. Simply put, the transformer will see 60 amps on each phase, but it is the same current. You don’t have 60 + 60 + 60 = 180. You have 60, 60, and 60, for a total of 60.
 

jumper

Senior Member
Okay, just to play with a little math.:cool:

Assume a 208Y/120V system.

PF for all loads is 1, so kVA = kW.

Panel is rated for 60A.

Total power available, P = 208V x 1.732 x 60, P = 21.6 kVA.

A and B phases are loaded with a 60A L-L load. 60A x 208V = 12.48 kVA.

How much kVA can I load on C phase?
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
I am working on a 3ph 4 wire system. I have a 60 amp main breaker. Does it mean I can load 60amp on A ph, 60 amp on B ph, and 60 amp on C ph? Or does it mean that I can only put 60amps total for A, B, and C phase?

My question is, for a 3ph 4 wire circuit with 60amps main breaker, does it mean I have available 60 amps or 180amp?

Please include proof, calculation formula or NEC reference. I'm lost... thank you
Welcome newbie.
If you have a 3-pole 60A MCB, each pole is rated at 60A. It really is no more complicated than that.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
It's surprising to me just how often I see this issue come up. Seems as though maybe our trade is doing a poor job of educating electricians on the basic concepts.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
It's surprising to me just how often I see this issue come up. Seems as though maybe our trade is doing a poor job of educating electricians on the basic concepts.
Interesting comment I do agree that some basic concepts are not taught. Are they even concepts? Are they things we learn by doing? I know that a 32A 3-pole AC1 contacror is rated t 32A resistive per pole or 18A AC3.
Or that an electrical enclosure could be rated at anywhere from IP00 to IP67. Such nomenclature didn't exist when I was at university.

Things move on. Sometimes by leaps and bounds. And it is incumbent on us as professionals to understand that and keep up to date.
 

MAC702

Senior Member
Location
Clark County, NV
...each pole is rated at 60A. It really is no more complicated than that.

Good succinct reply. Slight expansion: the 60 A can flow from pole to ground or pole to pole.

When a pole flows its current to ground, the other pole now has the availability to do the same.

Obviously, which way it's going affects the voltage at which it does so.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Interesting comment I do agree that some basic concepts are not taught. Are they even concepts? Are they things we learn by doing? I know that a 32A 3-pole AC1 contacror is rated t 32A resistive per pole or 18A AC3.
Or that an electrical enclosure could be rated at anywhere from IP00 to IP67. Such nomenclature didn't exist when I was at university.

Things move on. Sometimes by leaps and bounds. And it is incumbent on us as professionals to understand that and keep up to date.
But that was so long ago they were still stringing open wiring on porcelain insulators and using knife switches with exposed live parts:)
 

charlie b

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Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
A and B phases are loaded with a 60A L-L load. 60A x 208V = 12.48 kVA.
How much kVA can I load on C phase?
7.2 KVA, or 60 amps L-N at 120 volts. This setup falls short of using the panel's total capacity by 1.92 KVA.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
But that was so long ago they were still stringing open wiring on porcelain insulators and using knife switches with exposed live parts:)
I could say that was long before I was even a twinkle in my father's eye!
But I have come across both one of which resulted in me electrocuting my dog........:p
We stray.........I think the OP's question has been answered. I'll shaddup before our raver has a conniption fit............:D
 

jumper

Senior Member
7.2 KVA, or 60 amps L-N at 120 volts. This setup falls short of using the panel's total capacity by 1.92 KVA.

Thank you Charlie,
Your explanation earlier and a desire to thwart anyone from saying "amps per phase" was the reason I posted that scenario.

While I was pretty sure no EE would fall for it, usually when I have presented that scenario, I get at least one junior sparky to fall into the trap. Durn people here are too smart.
 
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augie47

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Location
Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
But that was so long ago they were still stringing open wiring on porcelain insulators and using knife switches with exposed live parts:)

I can relate to that.
My 1st exam had questions concerning color of plug fuses and western union splices :)
 

MAC702

Senior Member
Location
Clark County, NV
It shouldn't flow to ground. Neutral but not ground unless a ground fault exists.

As in grounded conductor. The grounded conductor takes it to ground, just not until it's supposed to. I specifically did not say EGC.

However, with a multi-pole breaker, it is also a neutral...

But for the purpose of the question, the two choices for a current leaving a pole are for it to go to ground somehow or another pole.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
As in grounded conductor. The grounded conductor takes it to ground, just not until it's supposed to. I specifically did not say EGC.

However, with a multi-pole breaker, it is also a neutral...

But for the purpose of the question, the two choices for a current leaving a pole are for it to go to ground somehow or another pole.
Or neutral.
 
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