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3 Phase OPEN DELTA and VFD's

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g-and-h_electric

Senior Member
Location
northern illinois
Occupation
supervising electrician
The plan was to get a NEW drive with single phase in, 3 phase out, sized for the motor. Again I am curious if this would fix things. As of right now the building management, and ComEd are working on things.... So I am keeping my ears open, and mouth shut... Just trying to find any info in case I have to fix this myself......


Howard
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Yes, it should work fine, so long as it is a drive designed for 1 phase in and 3HP.

We are assuming here that the line source is not intermittently losing a phase or it is suffering a severe voltage drop on one phase. It seems that you have ruled that out, but it's worth mentioning.
 

garbo

Senior Member
I need some help (and no not that kind). I just finished wiring up a YORK rooftop HVAC unit with electric heat strips and a VFD controlled blower motor. The building is fed with a 3 Phase 4 wire 120/240 Volt open delta service which has a high B phase.

The drive has an annoying habit of tripping out on "phase loss or imbalance". I added a drive isolation transformer (which I had to do on a TRANE unit installed on the same building, and on the Trane the transformer fixed the problems). This unit still trips out regularly. I have measured the voltages on both sides of the transformer, and the phases are not exactly balance from phase to phase as in say 242, 250 and 256 on the primary side, this of course affects the balance on the secondary side.......

Tech info :

Drive: DELTA MS-300 series
Motor: BALDOR 3Hp air over motor SF=1.15
Service notes: 4 single phase items on the transformer bank..... a) masonic Lodge no A/C units visible from the exterior, b) street light and special event receptacle panel c) 2 special event services with receptacle panels on the building. The special event stuff had no loads on them at this time.

Any ideas how to get this working? I hate to do buck boost transformers on each leg, ans there is no guarantee that come summer I wont have to change things. The power company is saying for about 20k, they can give us a wye service...... Seeing as this is a municipal building that isnt really in the budget


de, Howard

PS: why do I get all the "dirty dogs" at the shop lately????????
I have worked on VFD'S for 25 years and never came across this problem. The 14 volt difference between phases appear high. I would contact the drive company. Danfoss and A&B were great and bailed me out several times. They had me change parameters that were not in the drive book. We had a very good recorder that we would install to record line voltage and ampere. Would look at drive log to see what time a drive tripped out then looked at recorder. Back in early 80's we had at least 20 three phase 3 HP drives that required an isolation transformer for each motor that were absolute nightmares. Had to replace everyone by 5th year. Told us back then that they will never have the electronics to handle 480 volts. Before I retired company had two 1750 HP chiller drives that were feed bt 13.2 KV then to a 4,160 volt motor. Always told the young guys to learn 2 things: how to troubleshoot complicated circuits and VFD'S. Had very good union sparkies install drives but could not troubleshoot the most basic things on them.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
I have worked on VFD'S for 25 years and never came across this problem. The 14 volt difference between phases appear high. I would contact the drive company. Danfoss and A&B were great and bailed me out several times. They had me change parameters that were not in the drive book. We had a very good recorder that we would install to record line voltage and ampere. Would look at drive log to see what time a drive tripped out then looked at recorder. Back in early 80's we had at least 20 three phase 3 HP drives that required an isolation transformer for each motor that were absolute nightmares. Had to replace everyone by 5th year. Told us back then that they will never have the electronics to handle 480 volts. Before I retired company had two 1750 HP chiller drives that were feed bt 13.2 KV then to a 4,160 volt motor. Always told the young guys to learn 2 things: how to troubleshoot complicated circuits and VFD'S. Had very good union sparkies install drives but could not troubleshoot the most basic things on them.
Yeah agreed but there is nothing I hate more than an 'open delta' I have been dealing with similar problems on one and the simplest fix was to have the POCO just add a thrid can and make a closed delta. Customer had B-C single phase loads (240V lighting and heating) across the 'open' phases, wich de-stabilized the whole thing, open delta boils down to a POCO way to save money, and is not really versatile. I have never seen and 'open delta' on a customer side.
 

paulengr

Senior Member
Yeah agreed but there is nothing I hate more than an 'open delta' I have been dealing with similar problems on one and the simplest fix was to have the POCO just add a thrid can and make a closed delta. Customer had B-C single phase loads (240V lighting and heating) across the 'open' phases, wich de-stabilized the whole thing, open delta boils down to a POCO way to save money, and is not really versatile. I have never seen and 'open delta' on a customer side.

Virtually all switchgear PTs are open deltas except on generators. I’ve seen one once in a while feeding a single air handler. Even a city lift station (Manteo, NC downtown). They’re around but not common. Biggest thing is the high impedance of the third leg, twice that of the other two. OK for small loads say 10% of the kva rating.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Sidebar: Does this place have good prices on VFDs?

 

drcampbell

Senior Member
Location
The Motor City, Michigan USA
Occupation
Registered Professional Engineer
... I think the universal adoption of closed loop fuel injection was driven mostly by emission requirements, but it also keeps engines from running too rich and getting oil dilution that accelerates engine wear. ...
Yes. It also prevents the engine from ever running lean and burning out the exhaust valves or spark-plug electrodes, and makes them much easier to service--just plug in a code reader and ask it what's wrong.
Removing lead and sulfur from gasoline was also mandated by air-quality regulations. That, too, contributes to a cleaner engine that is less prone to misfires (which reduce power output and increase fuel consumption) due to fouled spark-plugs, or preignition due to deposits and hotspots.

... I think modern synthetic oils with improved additive packages would've prolonged the life of even the older cars.
Not much. The oil-change interval in older engines is determined mostly by contamination, and consumption of the additives that neutralize contaminants, not breakdown of the base oil, and you still have the older, softer alloys if the engine hasn't been rebuilt recently. Modern engines also have better dimensional tolerances and are stiffer, especially those with a structural oil pan. When the block flexes, clearances change and sometimes there's metal-to-metal contact.

... I believe that some of the reduction in the strength and stiffness of structures in today's cars compared to those of many years ago is so they can give way and crush in specific areas to absorb energy in [a crash]. Also weight reduction for fuel economy is another factor driving that trend. ...
Unibody construction is inherently stiffer than a frame that's only a few inches tall, especially against torque in the roll axis. (in body-on-frame design, the body contributes little or nothing to strength or stiffness; it's just along for the ride) And yes, there is a passenger compartment designed to remain intact and crumple zones designed to absorb energy. (look closely, and you'll see a few holes or notches put there to predictably initiate bending) When contemplating the results of a crash, look at the body as a composite of different components, not just "the body" as if it were one monolithic design.

This film clip dramatically illustrates the difference. "Cars survived a crash much better back in the day"? Hardly.
in all fairness, cars designed after the 1966 Federal Motor-Vehicle Safety Standards took effect would have done much better. The per-mile fatality rate dropped by half between 1966 and 1976, as pre-FMVSS cars aged out of the fleet)

This one's even more dramatic. The driver of an old banger fares much worse than the driver of a modern car designed to the Euro NCAP standard, despite being surrounded by a half a ton more steel.

Never underestimate your engineers, if given proper direction (or government regulation) and a free hand.
 

StarCat

Industrial Engineering Tech
Location
Moab, UT USA
Occupation
Imdustrial Engineering Technician - HVACR Electrical and Mechanical Systems
The plan was to get a NEW drive with single phase in, 3 phase out, sized for the motor. Again I am curious if this would fix things. As of right now the building management, and ComEd are working on things.... So I am keeping my ears open, and mouth shut... Just trying to find any info in case I have to fix this myself......


Howard
I once had to solve some issues with Milnor Commercial Washing machines that were being run on a rotary phase converter. After I had solved all the simple problems like where the control transformers land, and rotation errors, Milnor Tech support had me do exactly what you are describing.
Install an oversized single phase input drive and dynamic braking resistor. This stopped all the drive errors once this was done. We are also talking in this case about a drive that was inside the unit back cabinet and not easy to access quickly.
 

MD Automation

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Engineer
Sidebar: Does this place have good prices on VFDs?


Larry,

While I can't speak directly to their prices on VFDs - if it helps at all, we have ordered 2 motors from them in the last few years. A 5 HP Weg to fix an Ingersoll Rand shop air compressor and a smaller 3/4 HP Leeson to fix our late 40s or early 50s Do-All Band Saw. Both motors were brand new, shipped quickly, still work fine and were decently priced.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Sidebar: Does this place have good prices on VFDs?

One of the risks of buying VFDs from "surplus" suppliers is that unlike things like motors and electro-mechanical devices, VFDs "age". Even if new, if a VFD sits on a shelf for more than 2 years without having power on it, the capacitors will degrade and require a procedure called "reforming" to be performed. That involves hooking up a variable transformer (a.k.a. "Variac") and slowly increasing the voltage over the course of a few hours. Alternatively you could prevent this from happening by simply connecting them to their rated line voltage for a few hours per year, but that involved removing them from the box, and people prefer "New In Box" (NIB) condition. But either way, it involved labor to manage that inventory, so what happens is that when distributors find out about that, they "dump" the old stock off onto these surplus sites for pennies on the dollar rather than go to the expense of dealing with the reforming procedure. That's why the prices tend to be lower on these sites; you are taking a chance. Some will replace a bad drive right away, but then what did that time and effort to connect it, remove it and connect a new one cost you, compared to just buying from a reputable supplier?
 
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