3 very easy questions,please help I am really confused

Status
Not open for further replies.
charlie b said:

Isn?t it more accurate to say that the Earth is a very low impedance path, but there is a high impedance in the connections between the power system and the Earth? That is, it is the interface between the ground rod and the surrounding ground that has high impedance (i.e., on the order of ohms).

The way I look at it, if you put two resistors in parallel, the net resistance is lower than either of the two. If you put a billion resistors in parallel, the net resistance becomes very low indeed. I think that there are billions of parallel paths between any two ground rods. These include paths in a straight line from one to the other, and paths that go through the center of the planet, and paths that go from my house to my neighbor?s house (in Seattle) via Mike Holt?s offices (in Florida). A box of dirt may have a high impedance, but a planet?s worth of dirt will not.

Am I off-base in this way of thinking? :confused: :confused:

Charlie B.,

When we say earth is a poor conductor, we mean that its resisitivity is much higher than that of copper. If it were practical to obtain a huge cross sectional area we might obtain a satisfactorily low impedance, but that, as you know, is seldom the case.

Then too, the conductive soil layer is often thin which exacerbates the problem. In these cases we must consider "sheet resistivity" in ohms/square rather than using bulk resisivity in ohm-meters..
 
Kaaud said:
so what will happen if I earthed the second leg of a 40 KVA transformer as shown in the diagram,what are the problems other than code violation

You would draw current between the two ground points. The breaker might or might not trip in this situation. The impedance would likely be in ohms rather than in millohms though. If you ground one leg through your body, you are in trouble!
 
Two quick points

Firstly, the earth is an odd but good "conductor". Turns out if you put in a pair of decent earthing systems, you'll get an impedence between them of around 500 ohms, and that number is independent of distance, 10 miles or 10,000 miles. So using the earth as a conductor has been a handy device for centuries, from the first telegraph circuits, submarine communications circuits, and for HVDC return paths. In HVDC systems, the ground path may carry currents of thousands of amps, so this isn't just suitable for communications use.

The other interesting thing is about grounding neutrals; until a ground is applied, there is no neutral. It is the connection of a ground to an otherwise floating circuit that enables a neutral to exist.
 
dbuckley said:
The other interesting thing is about grounding neutrals; until a ground is applied, there is no neutral. It is the connection of a ground to an otherwise floating circuit that enables a neutral to exist.

That I have to disagree with.

XO is a neutral grounded or not.
 
iwire said:
That I have to disagree with. XO is a neutral grounded or not.

Yeah, I suppose as a statement that could be controversial, but lets take a single phase transformer, with two output terminals, both of which are connected only to the secondary winding. Neither is marked. Which one is the neutral? (answer - the one you connect the ground to)

On a three phase transformer the XO is only a neutral because you chose to use the transformer that way. I could ignore the XO terminal, and connect the ground to one of the phase terminals. Corner grounded, kind a like a b'stard wild leg. Sure it would be an unusual arrangement, and probably not a useful one, but I've just made what you would normally call a phase terminal a ground terminal, and all the other terminals (inc XO) show a voltage with respect to neutral / ground.

Its all a bit of a fine distinction, and not normally important, when we arguing about first principles, it does pop its head over the parapets.
 
Kaaud said:
Can u give me the link plz?

Below is the NEC wording of 250.4(A)(1)

(A) Grounded Systems

(1) Electrical System Grounding Electrical systems that are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.

Roger
 
dbuckley said:
Yeah, I suppose as a statement that could be controversial, but lets take a single phase transformer, with two output terminals, both of which are connected only to the secondary winding. Neither is marked. Which one is the neutral? (answer - the one you connect the ground to)

In a two wire circuit there is never a "neutral", this includes the one that is earthed, it carries the same current as the other circuit conductor.

Roger
 
dbuckley said:
Yeah, I suppose as a statement that could be controversial, but lets take a single phase transformer, with two output terminals, both of which are connected only to the secondary winding. Neither is marked. Which one is the neutral? (answer - the one you connect the ground to)


I disagree.

A transformer with only two outputs will never have a neutral.

No two-wire circuit actually has a 'neutral'.

The two output transformer may, or may not end up with a grounded conductor.

On a three phase transformer the XO is only a neutral because you chose to use the transformer that way.

I did not choose that, the person that designed the transformer chose that. They internally wired XO as the common point between the coils.

I could ignore the XO terminal, and connect the ground to one of the phase terminals. Corner grounded, kind a like a b'stard wild leg.

You could do that but you would not have a neutral, you would have a grounded conductor.

Its all a bit of a fine distinction, and not normally important, when we arguing about first principles, it does pop its head over the parapets.

Well in the 2008 NEC we are likely to see the following two definitions added.

Neutral conductor. A circuit conductor connected to the neutral point of a
system.

Neutral point. The common point of a wye-connection in a polyphase system
or midpoint of a single-phase, 3-wire system or midpoint of a single-phase
portion of a 3-phase delta system or midpoint of a 3-wire, direct-current
system.

If you look at the ROPs you see that they rejected any mention of the neutral being grounded or not. :smile:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top