electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
Oops! I must be in the Bizzaro forum. So sorry.
Oops! I must be in the Bizzaro forum. So sorry.
3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
- Thread starter hurk27
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
All I was saying was that it could be done.
Hey, I did not say it was a good idea to do it or that it should be in the code that way.
All I was saying was that it could be done.
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
Or if this is a homeowner just kill the main and change the bulb
Pardon me, but if I kill the man I'll go to jail.
(Reference from kill all the goffers Caddy Shack)
Or if this is a homeowner just kill the main and change the bulb
Pardon me, but if I kill the man I'll go to jail.
(Reference from kill all the goffers Caddy Shack)
goldstar
Senior Member
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
Bob,
I glad we agree to disagree if we have good arguments. In reality, I would not go through the trouble of lining up all these switches to make them all off in the down position. It's tough enough making money doing new residential work to have to add time reorienting switches. In addition there are many cases where any one or more of these switches are ganged up with others which means you would have to orientate not only a specific group of switches but all the switches at each location. I don't know about anyone else but aside from having fun doing my job I'm really out there trying to make $$$ doing it.
Regards,
Phil
Bob,
I glad we agree to disagree if we have good arguments. In reality, I would not go through the trouble of lining up all these switches to make them all off in the down position. It's tough enough making money doing new residential work to have to add time reorienting switches. In addition there are many cases where any one or more of these switches are ganged up with others which means you would have to orientate not only a specific group of switches but all the switches at each location. I don't know about anyone else but aside from having fun doing my job I'm really out there trying to make $$$ doing it.
Regards,
Phil
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
It's tough enough making money doing new residential work to have to add time reorienting switches. In addition there are many cases where any one or more of these switches are ganged up with others ...
That's what I was trying to imply. If you do neat work you install your switches all the same way. The only way to avoid flipping the switch is to swap the travelers, which is even more time consuming.
It's tough enough making money doing new residential work to have to add time reorienting switches. In addition there are many cases where any one or more of these switches are ganged up with others ...
That's what I was trying to imply. If you do neat work you install your switches all the same way. The only way to avoid flipping the switch is to swap the travelers, which is even more time consuming.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
OK OK go ahead and shoot me
Thanks for the replies: Wayne A.
[ October 25, 2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
OK OK go ahead and shoot me
Thanks for the replies: Wayne A.
[ October 25, 2003, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
brian john
Senior Member
- Location
- Leesburg, VA
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
What I like most about this site is the really pithy issues confronting electricians, ground up, ground down, and this type of post (3 way switch up3 way switch down) get a large number of responses.
What I like most about this site is the really pithy issues confronting electricians, ground up, ground down, and this type of post (3 way switch up3 way switch down) get a large number of responses.
ryan_618
Senior Member
- Location
- Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
[ October 25, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
You're not being the ball Brian!
[ October 25, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: ryan_618 ]
G
Guest
Guest
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
Electricians require 2000 to 4000 hours of experience to be certified (plus training).
Maybe homeowners should be required to take a basic home safety course before they get the keys to the crib.
We could also provide them with a non-contact voltage-tester with our logo & phone # on it. Maybe a combination voltage-tester & cell-phone so they can speed dial us or 911 if they get hung up on a ladder. The tester could be permanently attached to their hipbone with small gauge aircraft cable.
We could also make all electrical items non-user serviceable. Everything would have a lock-out or a code. They would have to rely on us to change things because only we would have the codes. It could be a PGP type code with a public key, and a private key. Only a qualified electrician would have the private key to re-enable the device.
Seriously, how many of us do a safety walk-through with our clients before we turn over the keys to these deadly items?
Is there a practical solution to safeguarding Wayne's (hurk27) client? Meaning from electricity in general, not just from 3-way switched circuits. Is there a way to idiot-proof...I mean homeowner-proof many of the items in their electrical system? How about snap-in light bulbs that don't have any exposed live contacts? The Edison base is over 100 years old.
I would wager that most electrical accidents happen to homeowners & apprentices.
Wayne's post seemed a bit off the wall, but it points to a deeper issue & it points to the issue of "are we liable?". Nobody wants to see their customers get buzzed.
Electricians require 2000 to 4000 hours of experience to be certified (plus training).
Maybe homeowners should be required to take a basic home safety course before they get the keys to the crib.
We could also provide them with a non-contact voltage-tester with our logo & phone # on it. Maybe a combination voltage-tester & cell-phone so they can speed dial us or 911 if they get hung up on a ladder. The tester could be permanently attached to their hipbone with small gauge aircraft cable.
We could also make all electrical items non-user serviceable. Everything would have a lock-out or a code. They would have to rely on us to change things because only we would have the codes. It could be a PGP type code with a public key, and a private key. Only a qualified electrician would have the private key to re-enable the device.
Seriously, how many of us do a safety walk-through with our clients before we turn over the keys to these deadly items?
Is there a practical solution to safeguarding Wayne's (hurk27) client? Meaning from electricity in general, not just from 3-way switched circuits. Is there a way to idiot-proof...I mean homeowner-proof many of the items in their electrical system? How about snap-in light bulbs that don't have any exposed live contacts? The Edison base is over 100 years old.
I would wager that most electrical accidents happen to homeowners & apprentices.
Wayne's post seemed a bit off the wall, but it points to a deeper issue & it points to the issue of "are we liable?". Nobody wants to see their customers get buzzed.
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
Ya know Wayne, this was a interesting topic to follow even though real basic stuff, people shared some different views.
I just don't see why you have to generalize homeowners as idiots and apprentice electricans as a accident waiting to happen .
Perhaps you should take a look at yourself once and see where you fit in before shaking the dirty end of the stick at people with less experience than yourself .
Johnbeginnerelectricanandahomeowner.
Ya know Wayne, this was a interesting topic to follow even though real basic stuff, people shared some different views.
I just don't see why you have to generalize homeowners as idiots and apprentice electricans as a accident waiting to happen .
Perhaps you should take a look at yourself once and see where you fit in before shaking the dirty end of the stick at people with less experience than yourself .
Johnbeginnerelectricanandahomeowner.
G
Guest
Guest
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
Whoops. Sorry John. Your points are well taken. That was not my intention, and I apologize if it was construed that way.
Does this sound better: The more knowledge & experience we have, the less likely we are to be injured by electricity.
I honestly believe that everybody benefits from education. Knowledge & experience = safety.
I also believe that apprentices are most likely to be injured by electricity. That's what I've been told and that's what I've observed. It's not about intelligence. It's about experience.
I also believe that with technology we could make electrical devices safer. The electrical trade has not kept pace with the technological gains of other industries.
[The 1st part of my previous post was intended to be humorous. Maybe I should have made that more clear. I'm sorry if my post or sense of humor caused you any extra stress or anxiety].
Whoops. Sorry John. Your points are well taken. That was not my intention, and I apologize if it was construed that way.
Does this sound better: The more knowledge & experience we have, the less likely we are to be injured by electricity.
I honestly believe that everybody benefits from education. Knowledge & experience = safety.
I also believe that apprentices are most likely to be injured by electricity. That's what I've been told and that's what I've observed. It's not about intelligence. It's about experience.
I also believe that with technology we could make electrical devices safer. The electrical trade has not kept pace with the technological gains of other industries.
[The 1st part of my previous post was intended to be humorous. Maybe I should have made that more clear. I'm sorry if my post or sense of humor caused you any extra stress or anxiety].
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
Wayne, the topic was about 3 & 4 way switch orientation, the views that were followed with interest , I can't see why you distract from that issue , period
For a person who uses this forum as a learning tool theses posts are great for myself and others to learn more in depth about subjects, someday myself I will be able to post some imput on some of the articles that are posted here, but at this point it is best that I listen more than talk, I feel comfortable with the fact that my status is of more asking quesions on this forum because giving wrong and mis-leading information is a sign of a someone who really does not know what he is talking about.........thats not a good thing .
Your opinions frequently add distraction to a subject , by NO MEANS are they helpful nor are they encouraging when you add that" humor" that tends to belittle others, you can crawfish out of this with appolgys and sugar coated sayings but it does not change the fact that you are prejudice towards other with less experience and act like a "know it all ".
Johngivingyouakickintheshins
Wayne, the topic was about 3 & 4 way switch orientation, the views that were followed with interest , I can't see why you distract from that issue , period
For a person who uses this forum as a learning tool theses posts are great for myself and others to learn more in depth about subjects, someday myself I will be able to post some imput on some of the articles that are posted here, but at this point it is best that I listen more than talk, I feel comfortable with the fact that my status is of more asking quesions on this forum because giving wrong and mis-leading information is a sign of a someone who really does not know what he is talking about.........thats not a good thing .
Your opinions frequently add distraction to a subject , by NO MEANS are they helpful nor are they encouraging when you add that" humor" that tends to belittle others, you can crawfish out of this with appolgys and sugar coated sayings but it does not change the fact that you are prejudice towards other with less experience and act like a "know it all ".
Johngivingyouakickintheshins
G
Guest
Guest
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
John,
I am going to start out by apologizing and that is not to sugar coat anything.
I used to start my posts with my current situation & history. I stopped posting all that as it got tedious. I don't know everything and I am here to get up to speed on the 2002 NEC.
HISTORY:
I was very active in the electrical trades from about 1974 to about 1993. Mostly solo.
In 1994 I became a serious student of the 1993 NEC. We had weekly company roundtable discussions about the NEC with dozens of electricians present. The majority of my 1993 NEC assimilation & experience is now dated, dusty, and rusty. I have stated that many times on this forum, and I'm sorry if you missed that.
I was out of the electrical trade from about 1995 to 2003, so I missed a couple of code cycles. I still kept my toe in the construction industry. In the meantime I suffered a workplace injury. I was able to keep working but no more lifting or crawling. I also picked up a substantial amount of computer skills.
SITUATION:
I am in the process of launching a new business venture to support myself. I like hands-on but the rub is the no-lifting restriction. The mix I am working on is combining computer consulting with network & computer cabling; clean computer circuits; data centers; co-location; etc.
For the early part of my career it was just me & the NEC; in 1994 it was me, 100-guys nationwide, and the NEC; now it's me, this forum & the NEC. My point is that this forum has allowed me to participate in a bigger roundtable. A lot of stuff I learned on my own was wrong; a lot of stuff I learned at the 1994 roundtable was wrong; time has passed making a lot of my knowledge moot; but now the mikeholt.com NEC forum allows me to cross-check my knowledge with a huge roundtable. Now it's me, the NEC, and the other 10,000 folks here. That's a better roundtable.
The part I like about the forum concept is I can present an idea or belief. If it's good nobody will object or they may even validate it. If they disagree with me it gives me a chance to re-evaluate my belief or idea. The folks here are pretty quick on the trigger to point out something if it's wrong. But, that's a good thing when it's constructive.
You mentioned that you don't ask too many questions here, or post very often. My teacher once told me the best way to learn is to teach. To paraphrase that: The best way to learn in this forum is to post an answer or a follow-up question. There is a lot to learn and I have learned boatloads here. It has been a fast track for me to attempt to come back up to speed on the 2002 NEC.
I learn something everyday.
I know a lot. I've done a lot. But, I still don't know jack when you get right down to it. That's life.
I am sorry if I have come across to you as superior or thereby made you (or anybody) feel inferior. On the food chain of experts here my 2002 NEC experience is minimal. My knowledge ranking is not in the upper echelon. I feel inferior in that regard to many. But, as long as they don't rub it in my face or flog me I will continue to reach out to them and I try to assimilate all their constructive answers & questions. Due to my current physical condition and due to my lack of recent major electrical experience I am weak and vulnerable here. Hopefully any bullies will not take advantage of my weakness or my inferiority to them. Inferiority is relative, and there will always be someone superior (or inferior) to us in various ways, and depending on the context. Regardless, for now I will continue to post in good faith so I may learn and move forward while I get my legs back.
If this post further aggravates you, please let me know. And, maybe it's time to take this offline for now if any personal issues remain after this post. My intent here is for you to further understand my state-of-mind and my true intentions when posting.
../Wayne C.
John,
I am going to start out by apologizing and that is not to sugar coat anything.
I used to start my posts with my current situation & history. I stopped posting all that as it got tedious. I don't know everything and I am here to get up to speed on the 2002 NEC.
HISTORY:
I was very active in the electrical trades from about 1974 to about 1993. Mostly solo.
In 1994 I became a serious student of the 1993 NEC. We had weekly company roundtable discussions about the NEC with dozens of electricians present. The majority of my 1993 NEC assimilation & experience is now dated, dusty, and rusty. I have stated that many times on this forum, and I'm sorry if you missed that.
I was out of the electrical trade from about 1995 to 2003, so I missed a couple of code cycles. I still kept my toe in the construction industry. In the meantime I suffered a workplace injury. I was able to keep working but no more lifting or crawling. I also picked up a substantial amount of computer skills.
SITUATION:
I am in the process of launching a new business venture to support myself. I like hands-on but the rub is the no-lifting restriction. The mix I am working on is combining computer consulting with network & computer cabling; clean computer circuits; data centers; co-location; etc.
For the early part of my career it was just me & the NEC; in 1994 it was me, 100-guys nationwide, and the NEC; now it's me, this forum & the NEC. My point is that this forum has allowed me to participate in a bigger roundtable. A lot of stuff I learned on my own was wrong; a lot of stuff I learned at the 1994 roundtable was wrong; time has passed making a lot of my knowledge moot; but now the mikeholt.com NEC forum allows me to cross-check my knowledge with a huge roundtable. Now it's me, the NEC, and the other 10,000 folks here. That's a better roundtable.
The part I like about the forum concept is I can present an idea or belief. If it's good nobody will object or they may even validate it. If they disagree with me it gives me a chance to re-evaluate my belief or idea. The folks here are pretty quick on the trigger to point out something if it's wrong. But, that's a good thing when it's constructive.
You mentioned that you don't ask too many questions here, or post very often. My teacher once told me the best way to learn is to teach. To paraphrase that: The best way to learn in this forum is to post an answer or a follow-up question. There is a lot to learn and I have learned boatloads here. It has been a fast track for me to attempt to come back up to speed on the 2002 NEC.
I learn something everyday.
I know a lot. I've done a lot. But, I still don't know jack when you get right down to it. That's life.
I am sorry if I have come across to you as superior or thereby made you (or anybody) feel inferior. On the food chain of experts here my 2002 NEC experience is minimal. My knowledge ranking is not in the upper echelon. I feel inferior in that regard to many. But, as long as they don't rub it in my face or flog me I will continue to reach out to them and I try to assimilate all their constructive answers & questions. Due to my current physical condition and due to my lack of recent major electrical experience I am weak and vulnerable here. Hopefully any bullies will not take advantage of my weakness or my inferiority to them. Inferiority is relative, and there will always be someone superior (or inferior) to us in various ways, and depending on the context. Regardless, for now I will continue to post in good faith so I may learn and move forward while I get my legs back.
If this post further aggravates you, please let me know. And, maybe it's time to take this offline for now if any personal issues remain after this post. My intent here is for you to further understand my state-of-mind and my true intentions when posting.
../Wayne C.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
Phil
Your Oct 24th, 7 am post was very funny, thanks for the good laugh. Maybe all electricians should have their fingers certified , but maybe Fluke might protest but some just don't or don't want to understand.
Pierre
Phil
Your Oct 24th, 7 am post was very funny, thanks for the good laugh. Maybe all electricians should have their fingers certified
, but maybe Fluke might protest but some just don't or don't want to understand.Pierre
Ed MacLaren
Senior Member
Re: 3-Way & 4-Way switch orientation
By the way Bennie, his name was Phil Palmer.
Ed
Your post reminded me of my first employer, in his 70's at the time, who would use his thumb and index finger as a "tester" across 120/240 volts. If he didn't feel anything he would wet his fingers in his mouth, and try again. Of course this would be in a dry location, residential, wood floor, etc.
By the way Bennie, his name was Phil Palmer.
Ed
- Status