southernboys
Senior Member
Why is it that 3ways are considered to be so difficult to hook up? It seems to me if its either a deadend 3way or a regular 3way its a menial task that a 6 week helper should be able to do. Just my honest opinion
3 ways
- Thread starter southernboys
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: 3 ways
I think that many electricians don't quite understand the simple theory behind connecting them. Factor in black, white and red colors and you're adding to the confusion. Then add in which way the circuiting is set up.
The simplest method, 2 wire feed to one switch, a 3 wire between them and the 2 wire switch leg out to the light is simple enough.
Start by adding the feed at the fixture and one three wire to each switch from the fixture and things can get rather complex. I've always found it quite simple when I see the wiring diagram in my head and go from there. I think that the basic understanding of how it works trips up a lot of people.
I think that many electricians don't quite understand the simple theory behind connecting them. Factor in black, white and red colors and you're adding to the confusion. Then add in which way the circuiting is set up.
The simplest method, 2 wire feed to one switch, a 3 wire between them and the 2 wire switch leg out to the light is simple enough.
Start by adding the feed at the fixture and one three wire to each switch from the fixture and things can get rather complex. I've always found it quite simple when I see the wiring diagram in my head and go from there. I think that the basic understanding of how it works trips up a lot of people.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 3 ways
I find that many new electricians are not being showed how the circuit funtions.
They are showed which color wire goes on which terminal.
This does nothing to bring understanding of how circuits works to those that realy need it.
I find that many new electricians are not being showed how the circuit funtions.
They are showed which color wire goes on which terminal.
This does nothing to bring understanding of how circuits works to those that realy need it.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 3 ways
I have put together booklets that I use that have nice "color diagrams" and also a sequance of operation for each circuit in a house. It also has diagrams on phone and cable systems and grounding and bonding. We have a hard time getting quilifide people here who want to work.
The booklet has helped alot but much work has to be done to get these kids mor interested in the code part.
I have put together booklets that I use that have nice "color diagrams" and also a sequance of operation for each circuit in a house. It also has diagrams on phone and cable systems and grounding and bonding. We have a hard time getting quilifide people here who want to work.
The booklet has helped alot but much work has to be done to get these kids mor interested in the code part.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician
Re: 3 ways
Sounds like a great idea. I think that one of the big problems with 3-ways and 4-ways is that the color scheme is not standardized. This can make troubleshooting a real challenge for someone who doesn't fully understand how the system works.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: 3 ways
This is why we must stop teaching how to wire by color and start showing how a circuit works. there are many different installations that will require different color wire as travelers. One to think of is where you feed one 3-way box with the hot and pass the neutral through the 3-conductor to the other 3-way box to feed the load return. If one has the understanding good enough so they can picture the circuit in their mind then trouble shooting these circuits will be much easier. Electricity does not know color.
PlnOldRick
Member
Re: 3 ways
on every box of 3 ways i have gotten there is a nifty little diagram on the box.
we used to hang them up all over the place for the mexicans to read. they kinda had a problem understanding them (3 ways) and since none of them spoke english (admittedly) it was our only recourse.
on every box of 3 ways i have gotten there is a nifty little diagram on the box.
we used to hang them up all over the place for the mexicans to read. they kinda had a problem understanding them (3 ways) and since none of them spoke english (admittedly) it was our only recourse.
larryl
Senior Member
- Location
- wrentham ma.
Re: 3 ways
for those who have trouble,just remember that,"one point needs to have constant power",
then you can do anything from there,,
feed throught neatral,ect.
hope this helps,,
for those who have trouble,just remember that,"one point needs to have constant power",
then you can do anything from there,,
feed throught neatral,ect.
hope this helps,,
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: 3 ways
"on every box of 3 ways i have gotten there is a nifty little diagram on the box.
I edited out some offensive comments. Charlie
As to wiring 3 ways ,this seperates the helpers from the journeyman.Without the theory part of electric you can't do it.You simply can't use color code unless all you do is new romex houses.There are times you need to know all 3.Throw in a couple 4 ways and some simply must walk away.I have even seen some so called journeymen screw up a simple back switch single pole.
[ December 25, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
"on every box of 3 ways i have gotten there is a nifty little diagram on the box.
I edited out some offensive comments. Charlie
As to wiring 3 ways ,this seperates the helpers from the journeyman.Without the theory part of electric you can't do it.You simply can't use color code unless all you do is new romex houses.There are times you need to know all 3.Throw in a couple 4 ways and some simply must walk away.I have even seen some so called journeymen screw up a simple back switch single pole.
[ December 25, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: 3 ways
Hurk is "spot on"! We need to quit teaching how to wire by memorizing a diagram. 3-ways, motor controllers (stop/start), e-stops, etc. Until you understand what the electricity is doing and why, you will always run into a problem that you can't figure out. You might even hurt someone.
Hurk is "spot on"! We need to quit teaching how to wire by memorizing a diagram. 3-ways, motor controllers (stop/start), e-stops, etc. Until you understand what the electricity is doing and why, you will always run into a problem that you can't figure out. You might even hurt someone.
PlnOldRick
Member
Re: 3 ways
I edited out the offensive post. Charlie
[ December 25, 2005, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
I edited out the offensive post. Charlie
[ December 25, 2005, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Re: 3 ways
Race is not an issue. If you hire people you can't communicate with, how do you expect to train them? Don't blame the immigrant for the folly of the man doing the hiring.
Regardless of race, it defines an aspect of our job that must be understood if you expect to remain in the trade.
By all means, train them until you've proven they can just flat not understand it. Then terminate them.
IMO.
[ December 25, 2005, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
Actually, I've had $11/hour (non-immigrant) helpers that had difficulty grasping the concept. It got to the point where I told the guy, "If you cannot remember how to tie a threeway by the end of the month, you need to find another line of work."
Race is not an issue. If you hire people you can't communicate with, how do you expect to train them? Don't blame the immigrant for the folly of the man doing the hiring.
Regardless of race, it defines an aspect of our job that must be understood if you expect to remain in the trade.
It's sad that someone would retain an employee who does not have the mental capacity for the job. They should not be a "helper" as opposed to a "journeyman", they should be "unemployed."
By all means, train them until you've proven they can just flat not understand it. Then terminate them.
IMO.
All three? Are there only three ways to tie a threeway?
[ December 25, 2005, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: charlie ]
PlnOldRick
Member
Re: 3 ways
wow, i find it rediculous that saying i would not hire someone because they do not speak english is offensive.
and george i agree race is not an issue, it is a communication problem. my reference to our mexican crew doing our multi-families and consistantly messing up 3 ways would have been the same for anyone other race. my entire point is that why must the burden fall on the owner or the person doing the hiring, be the employee black white blue or orange? we did not choose any of these people for this trade, they chose this trade and THEY must be the ones who try to learn it. if they are white and just cannot grasp the concept of a 3 way or if they are mexican and cannot speak english to be taught how to wire a 3 way what is the difference? none. the white guy should study harder if this is what he really wants and the mexican guy should learn english. it should NOT be the burden of the employer to babysit these people.
this is the big problem, the reason why there are people out there that cannot tie in a 3 way. because its become almost industry standard to hire whomever walks through the door regardless of mental capacity or communication skills. this is going to sound like a real democrat but this industry needs much more regulation pertaining to the people who are allowed to work in it.
back in pennsylvania you did nto need a license to do anything outside of the major cities. here in florida your supposed to have a card carrying journeyman on every job but its not enforced. do you see this kind of reckless regulation in medicine? or law? or computers? no these people are required to have schooling and pass national industry standard testing per thier profession. would you want your doctor to operate and perform a procedure on you as per some medical code but not be licensed? tighter regulation that makes it harder is the only thing that is going to end threads like this. as long as there is none you will always have an safe haven for people who dont know and dont care.
wow, i find it rediculous that saying i would not hire someone because they do not speak english is offensive.
and george i agree race is not an issue, it is a communication problem. my reference to our mexican crew doing our multi-families and consistantly messing up 3 ways would have been the same for anyone other race. my entire point is that why must the burden fall on the owner or the person doing the hiring, be the employee black white blue or orange? we did not choose any of these people for this trade, they chose this trade and THEY must be the ones who try to learn it. if they are white and just cannot grasp the concept of a 3 way or if they are mexican and cannot speak english to be taught how to wire a 3 way what is the difference? none. the white guy should study harder if this is what he really wants and the mexican guy should learn english. it should NOT be the burden of the employer to babysit these people.
this is the big problem, the reason why there are people out there that cannot tie in a 3 way. because its become almost industry standard to hire whomever walks through the door regardless of mental capacity or communication skills. this is going to sound like a real democrat but this industry needs much more regulation pertaining to the people who are allowed to work in it.
back in pennsylvania you did nto need a license to do anything outside of the major cities. here in florida your supposed to have a card carrying journeyman on every job but its not enforced. do you see this kind of reckless regulation in medicine? or law? or computers? no these people are required to have schooling and pass national industry standard testing per thier profession. would you want your doctor to operate and perform a procedure on you as per some medical code but not be licensed? tighter regulation that makes it harder is the only thing that is going to end threads like this. as long as there is none you will always have an safe haven for people who dont know and dont care.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: 3 ways
It's worse that just 3-ways. Many electricians stumble over a basic switch loop.
The problem is that many electricians can't read a wiring diagram. So I'm not surprised that they can't wire a 3-way because they can't understand the diagram in the first place, and they can't draw one if they need to.
Bottom line, if you can't read a diagram, you can't wire anything, and you should consider another line of work.
It's worse that just 3-ways. Many electricians stumble over a basic switch loop.
The problem is that many electricians can't read a wiring diagram. So I'm not surprised that they can't wire a 3-way because they can't understand the diagram in the first place, and they can't draw one if they need to.
Bottom line, if you can't read a diagram, you can't wire anything, and you should consider another line of work.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: 3 ways
Electricians need to memorize all wiring diagrams, especially all variations of a 3-way circuit.
I disagree. As I said in my last post, diagrams are fundamental. How do you expect an electrician to wire something if they don't know the layout or connections?
Electricians need to memorize all wiring diagrams, especially all variations of a 3-way circuit.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 3 ways
I may even agree with your viewpoint but IMO it is not a road we should venture down.
We do not talk religion, politics, unions, or ethnic differences even though we all very likely have strong feelings about all of them.
Talking about them here will not change anything and 99% of the time will degenerate into a heated argument. Consider your own reaction when I suggested it is not an appropriate subject.
If you have a problem with how it is at your job, change jobs. Complaining about it here will do nothing.
This is just my opinion.
Bob
[ December 25, 2005, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
The point is this is an electrical forum.
I may even agree with your viewpoint but IMO it is not a road we should venture down.
We do not talk religion, politics, unions, or ethnic differences even though we all very likely have strong feelings about all of them.
Talking about them here will not change anything and 99% of the time will degenerate into a heated argument. Consider your own reaction when I suggested it is not an appropriate subject.
If you have a problem with how it is at your job, change jobs. Complaining about it here will do nothing.
This is just my opinion.
Bob
[ December 25, 2005, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
PlnOldRick
Member
Re: 3 ways
im not going to say anything else because im not real interested in gettin myself banned. and its all just my opinion anyway.
i agree when any social element is introduced that its almost always going to grenade itself because everyone has a different view on everything. but let me also say that this specific section of the forum is called "Electrical Contracting and Estimating/Management". now i do not know how it is in your area but for the area that i live in and generally statewide these are MAJOR management concerns. while social issues maybe taboo i think i can bet the ranch that everyone in here who is in some form of management has to deal with them on a regular basis. as far as i can see by pushing problems like this under the rug and not talking about them and how to deal with them we arent helping any problem and creating more taboo. im not saying make a hitler youth catagory here but simply acknowledge that as the field grows and the difference in people grow along with it that social issues are going to play a more and more profound impact in how being a foreman, or supervisor or owner is actually supposed to be.Originally posted by iwire:
The point is this is an electrical forum.
I may even agree with your viewpoint but IMO it is not a road we should venture down.
We do not talk religion, politics, unions, or ethnic differences even though we all very likely have strong feelings about all of them.
Talking about them here will not change anything and 99% of the time will degenerate into a heated argument. Consider your own reaction when I suggested it is not an appropriate subject.
If you have a problem with how it is at your job, change jobs. Complaining about it here will do nothing.
This is just my opinion.
Bob
im not going to say anything else because im not real interested in gettin myself banned. and its all just my opinion anyway.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: 3 ways
Many of them still have trouble with 3 ways.
In my area the majority of workers in this trade speak English fluently.
Many of them still have trouble with 3 ways.
Re: 3 ways
Just a different perspective on the immigrant stance.
Rick, let's say on the day you immigrated to FL from the North a (legal) Spanish speaking person from the South did too, who has more of a right to be there?
Now, let's say he is a graduate of This Tech School and is a master in the knowledge of the trade, would you or Jim work for him?
Not trying to start anything with the questions, just asking.
Roger
[ December 25, 2005, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
Just a different perspective on the immigrant stance.
Rick, let's say on the day you immigrated to FL from the North a (legal) Spanish speaking person from the South did too, who has more of a right to be there?
Now, let's say he is a graduate of This Tech School and is a master in the knowledge of the trade, would you or Jim work for him?
Not trying to start anything with the questions, just asking.
Roger
[ December 25, 2005, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
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