300 watt LED flood light 120-277 ?

[jumper]

Ground is always ground and not intended to carry current under normal operation.

There are some older lighting control devices that shoot down that statement.

 

[dkidd]

There are some older lighting control devices that shoot down that statement.

Yeah, I know that, but they "only" have milliamp currents.

 

[kwired]

Thanks for the help!!!

1)In a residential service L1 to ground would be 120, L2 to ground would be 120v L1 to L2 would be 240v, OK... Can that work with No neutral conductor by using the ground green wire as the as the neutral? This does not sound right to me... and will the two L1 and L2 work with no Neutral and no ground ?

2) does the ground work as the neutral when this is hooked up with two hot leeds


3)A single wire 240v hot to ground, that a high leg system right ? and 277v single wire is 480 system right?

Too much overthinking going on.

Unless the unit absolutely must have the white lead connected to a "grounded" conductor, you just need anywhere between 100 and 300 volts across the two input leads (which sounds like are black and white leads). If one of the supply conductors is a grounded conductor then connect it to the white lead - though it probably still works if you reversed the leads anyway.

You probably will not be connecting this from a 208 volt high leg and neutral, not because it wouldn't work, but because of other code issues that likely come up if you were to do so.

Green is the equipment grounding conductor regardless of what system or voltage you have from the supply.

 

[JCG1971]

120-277v means a voltage range. That means the white wire on the fixture can be a neutral or a hot wire as long as you have no more than 277 volts supplying power.

 

[kwired]

120-277v means a voltage range. That means the white wire on the fixture can be a neutral or a hot wire as long as you have no more than 277 volts supplying power.

Nominal 277 volts tends to run close to 285 around this area

 

[Richard Paterson]

LED 120 -277

LED 120 -277

Nominal 277 volts tends to run close to 285 around this area

Thanks reply.


So this device does not require and Neutral conductor? I can hook it up in mutable configurations?

Black, White, Green, Are the wires coming out of the device. If I have a residential 240 service, I can hook black to black, red to white, green to green and no neutral conductor is required?... To this light without burning it out, or driving voltage to the ground on the device.

That would suggest that on other device's that require 240 such as a base board heater "no" Neutral conductor is required... is the code compliant

"This might sound basic to some of you, but I want to make sure the I can install fixtures in a 240 system safely and to code and follow best practices .I
do thank all of you for the education . In Mike Holt's material is 240 residential service covered I need to clarify and get a firm understanding of the leg to leg 240 concept for operating electrical devices with or with out a Neutral conductor.

Thanks Richard Paterson

 

[winnie]

Please keep in mind that this is explicitly _not_ a 'do it yourself' discussion board. The risk is not that we can't answer your question, but that we don't know what you don't even know to ask. We can discuss the theoretical issues with this light...but you really need to have an electrician involved to install it.

To answer your most recent question...there is not sufficient information to answer.

The instructions ( http://ledradiant.com/media//forms/Wiring/INSTALLATION GUIDE - WDM-TR&ZP-70&45600&450-5Y-UG.pdf ) specifically say that the white should be connected to the 'neutral'.

The voltage rating suggests that the light will work 'line to line', but this goes against the installation instruction.

Only the manufacturer can give you a certain answer.

-Jon

 

[dkidd]

Thanks reply.


So this device does not require and Neutral conductor? I can hook it up in mutable configurations?

Black, White, Green, Are the wires coming out of the device. If I have a residential 240 service, I can hook black to black, red to white, green to green and no neutral conductor is required?... To this light without burning it out, or driving voltage to the ground on the device.

That would suggest that on other device's that require 240 such as a base board heater "no" Neutral conductor is required... is the code compliant

"This might sound basic to some of you, but I want to make sure the I can install fixtures in a 240 system safely and to code and follow best practices .I
do thank all of you for the education . In Mike Holt's material is 240 residential service covered I need to clarify and get a firm understanding of the leg to leg 240 concept for operating electrical devices with or with out a Neutral conductor.

Thanks Richard Paterson

See post 17

But there is a separate issue: Is there a requirement for a _grounded_ conductor? This is commonly called a neutral, but doesn't really need to be the 'neutral'. The grounded conductor is the wire that is supposed to carry current, but which is supposed to be at very low voltage relative to ground. An example of a system that requires a grounded conductor is an ordinary screw shell lamp holder; the screw shell is required to be connected to the grounded conductor.

-Jon

 

[Richard Paterson]

120- 277 LED

120- 277 LED

Please keep in mind that this is explicitly _not_ a 'do it yourself' discussion board. The risk is not that we can't answer your question, but that we don't know what you don't even know to ask. We can discuss the theoretical issues with this light...but you really need to have an electrician involved to install it.

To answer your most recent question...there is not sufficient information to answer.

The instructions ( http://ledradiant.com/media//forms/Wiring/INSTALLATION GUIDE - WDM-TR&ZP-70&45600&450-5Y-UG.pdf ) specifically say that the white should be connected to the 'neutral'.

The voltage rating suggests that the light will work 'line to line', but this goes against the installation instruction.

Only the manufacturer can give you a certain answer.

-Jon

I am a student trying to learn best practices. all though this particular light is rated 120-277, the voltage rating seems to be common with these Chinese imports.

Its confusing to someone learning how do things correctly. The project of installing these lights is not being done by me directly, It's being done by an electrician on my brother's property, and this is why I ask the question here on this forum. Because from what I observed by the installation, it was contrary to the instruction that came with the light. The electrician was installing them black to black red to white on the lamp and green was carried back to the box on the bare cooper ground.
"no neutral"
My questions are to learn the correct way for installing these Led with confusing instruction.

Thanks again Richard Paterson

 

[kwired]

It mostly comes down to whether the device can withstand other then ground/near ground potential conductor connected to the white input lead.

I would guess most likely it will, but can't really assure you of that either. If nothing inside cares about what the voltage reference to ground is (at least up to 277 nominal) then it probably will not care if one or the other or neither is at ground potential, it will just want 120 to 277 nominal applied to the two leads. A little surprising it doesn't just have two leads the same color plus the green though unless there is good reason to require a grounded conductor connect to the white.

If you had a screw shell type lampholder involved then the white would go to the screwshell, should it be used with a circuit that has a grounded conductor the screwshell needs to be connected to the grounded conductor for a little more safety reasons, otherwise the lamp being inserted will work either way. Maybe in a similar way you have something that would be desirable to have the grounded conductor on a certain component if there is a grounded conductor.

 

[dkidd]

I have wondered since the original post why they want to hook up the lights to 240. That takes up 2 pole-spaces in the panelboard. The load is so small that even load balancing considerations would be overkill.

 

[GoldDigger]

I have wondered since the original post why they want to hook up the lights to 240. That takes up 2 pole-spaces in the panelboard. The load is so small that even load balancing considerations would be overkill.

To minimize the effect of voltage drop in really long branch circuits? The light would still work fine but it would be less energy efficient.

 

[JFletcher]

Could someone please clarify something for me.

I am a student and I am confused about the voltage ratings on some of the LED outdoor flood lighting.
On the instructions the voltage rating reads "120-277" the device has only three wires (white, black, green). So what I am confused about It doesn't say 120 or 277 just 120-277. I've seen this on many other LED devices.
I would assume that if it was 120 or 277 the black would be "line", white "neutral" and "green" ground, and with that wiring configuration I would think that you could not hook up "Black and Red" 220v circuit . I went to and electrical supply house and they were not be sure... went the manufacture's website and It just repeated the instruction that came with the light. My brother bought two 300 watt lights for his drive way and was going to hook them up to a 220v circuit hooking the black to black and red to white on the light and green would be the neutral.
I explained that he should check on that. I thought the three wires on the light- Black, White, Green would be for 120....
Thanks Rich

I've seen that 120-277V rating before as well. Some mfg, this means anything between 100-300V will work. If there are no screwshells (lamp holders), you could probably use anything from 120V to 277V as a power source. I dont think Mogul base are limited to neutral on the threads; given the amount of 480V lighting Ive seen, they cant all be non-compliant installs.

The only LEDs I've used on 240V supply (split phase residential, 2 hots + ground) were replacing 240V 1500W Halogens, and they were rated 240V.

As said above, green is always ground; 220-240V doesnt use a neutral.

Even if it works, supplying 208-240V (2 hots) to a fixture requiring a grounded conductor is a 110.3(B) violation.

 

[GoldDigger]

Further complication: None of the part numbers shown on the LEDRadiant site match any part numbers in the UL file for Mester Led, the mark holder and presumably manufacturer.

And, also FWIW, the Amazon product, LEDLAND brand, appears to be the same Mester product and the Amazon page says UL Listed.

I got the return email from UL today.
It confirms that when the NEC (or an AHJ) require "listed" a product that has only UL "Classified" does not qualify. Unfortunately what I asked about was "Certified."
Here is the whole answer:

Dear Dave,

I am following up with you regarding your questions regarding the difference between a UL Listed product and a UL Classified product.

A Listed product is one that has been produced under UL's Listing and Follow-Up Service program in accordance with the terms of UL's Service Agreement and that bears the UL Listing Mark as the manufacturer's declaration that the product complies with UL's requirements.
A Classified product is one that UL determines that a manufacturer has demonstrated the ability to produce a product that complies with UL's requirements for the purpose of classification or evaluation with respect to one or more of the following:
1. Specific risks only such as casualty, fire, or shock
2. Performance under specified conditions
3. Regulatory codes
4. Other standards, including international standards
5. Other conditions as UL may consider desirable
By terms UL's Service Agreement, UL authorizes the manufacturer to use the Classification Mark on products that comply with UL's requirements and establishes Follow-Up Service as a check of the means the manufacturer exercises to maintain compliance with the requirements of UL.

A Recognized Component is a part or subassembly covered under UL's Recognition Service and intended for factory installation in Listed (or other) products. Recognized Components are incomplete in certain construction features or restricted in performance capabilities and not intended for separate installation in the field, rather they are intended for use as components of incomplete equipment submitted for investigation by UL. Final acceptance of the component in the complete equipment is dependent upon its installation and use in accordance with all applicable use conditions and ratings noted (1) in the component report issued by UL, (2) in the Guide Information, and (3) in the individual client's Recognized Component Information Page.

For example, if a product is to be sold as an end product it will most likely need to be Listed. Similarly, if a product is to be sold as a component of another end product it will most likely need to be Recognized. On the other hand, if the product will be used under specific conditions such as outdoor electrical outlet exposed to weather, or evaluated to a single type of hazard like fire, it might need to be Classified.

 

[kwired]

I've seen that 120-277V rating before as well. Some mfg, this means anything between 100-300V will work. If there are no screwshells (lamp holders), you could probably use anything from 120V to 277V as a power source. I dont think Mogul base are limited to neutral on the threads; given the amount of 480V lighting Ive seen, they cant all be non-compliant installs.

The only LEDs I've used on 240V supply (split phase residential, 2 hots + ground) were replacing 240V 1500W Halogens, and they were rated 240V.

As said above, green is always ground; 220-240V doesnt use a neutral.

Even if it works, supplying 208-240V (2 hots) to a fixture requiring a grounded conductor is a 110.3(B) violation.

From NEC perspective, if there is a screw shell lamp holder the shell needs to be connected to the grounded conductor when used on a circuit with a grounded conductor. If there is no grounded conductor then it doesn't matter which conductor connects to the shell. I'd have to dig deeper to know for certain, but there may be restrictions in dwellings or something on non grounded screw shell. Many luminaires that potentially could have a non grounded screw shell often are marked not for use in dwellings from what I have noticed.

 

[Richard Paterson]

LED 120 -277 flood lamp

LED 120 -277 flood lamp

From NEC perspective, if there is a screw shell lamp holder the shell needs to be connected to the grounded conductor when used on a circuit with a grounded conductor. If there is no grounded conductor then it doesn't matter which conductor connects to the shell. I'd have to dig deeper to know for certain, but there may be restrictions in dwellings or something on non grounded screw shell. Many luminaires that potentially could have a non grounded screw shell often are marked not for use in dwellings from what I have noticed.

OK I think. I think that I under stand now (not to beat a dead horse).
1) this LED lamp can handle voltages from 120v to 277 (+or-) the 240 install could go black to black red to white and green to ground that would suggest a 220/240 residential service would "NOT" require a neutral to function, but would require a ground to be code compliant.
2) so that does that indicate a two wire 240 residential service will not require a neutral to a device that uses both hots to power the device? I have a hot water heater that is 240 but this device splits off two heating elements top is wired black and neutral bottom element is red and neutral to element ( the ground is on the tank) basically two 120 circuits.
3) Hot to hot (240) wiring would indicate that all Power load of the device is consumed by the device and does NOT require a return path back to the mains. ( No Neutral path return?)
4) On these or other LED with electronically controlled power transformers the circuits In the device will switch and rectify the power to the LED. That power transformer can except power on the white lead.
5) I all-ways thought that a neutral path back to the mains was required to complete the circuit.

Thanks Rich

 

[JFletcher]

OK I think. I think that I under stand now (not to beat a dead horse).
1) this LED lamp can handle voltages from 120v to 277 (+or-) the 240 install could go black to black red to white and green to ground that would suggest a 220/240 residential service would "NOT" require a neutral to function, but would require a ground to be code compliant.
2) so that does that indicate a two wire 240 residential service will not require a neutral to a device that uses both hots to power the device? I have a hot water heater that is 240 but this device splits off two heating elements top is wired black and neutral bottom element is red and neutral to element ( the ground is on the tank) basically two 120 circuits.
3) Hot to hot (240) wiring would indicate that all Power load of the device is consumed by the device and does NOT require a return path back to the mains. ( No Neutral path return?)
4) On these or other LED with electronically controlled power transformers the circuits In the device will switch and rectify the power to the LED. That power transformer can except power on the white lead.
5) I all-ways thought that a neutral path back to the mains was required to complete the circuit.

Thanks Rich

re: #5, you do not need a neutral for a complete circuit. With the exception of your range and dryer (and maybe not even those), all other 240V loads in your house do not require a neutral. You could lose the service neutral to your house, and as long as both legs had a balanced load, you wouldnt even know it. Everything, including 120V loads, would work as usual, just across 240V series wired vs 120V parallel. ofc, it is highly unlikely both legs would be balanced, and the degree of imbalance would cause potentially equipment destroying voltage swings.

Wire up a MWBC, plug in two 60W shop lights, one on each leg. Lift the neutral. Both bulbs will continue to function. or, measure the amperage on the neutral on a balanced MWBC. Hint: it will be 0.

All you need for current flow is potential, a path to something at a different potential, and a conductor. Birds can sit on 20kV (eta: technically, 19,920V) lines all day, but if one takes off, spreads its wings, and touches a 2nd 20kV line 120* out of phase, there is now 34,500V across it. Hence why overhead cross arms sometimes have those spikey looking things between insulators.

 

[just the cowboy]

Factory rep

Factory rep

Have heard of instances where once you use such a ballast or driver on 277 volts it won't work on 120 anymore.

Not really sure how they work, but is common anymore with various electronic driven power supplies to have an input range and not various voltage taps like you have with transformer type power supplies.

My boss was told by a factory rep for ballasts, that when voltage is applied if it is 120 volts all is good, if 240v is supplied the 120 v fuse opens and it runs off of the 240 volt circuit and so on up the line. So it could be reused when stepping up in voltage but not going back down.

 

[dema]

Neutral often required

Neutral often required

I am a designer and have often asked vendors - Lithonia, Cooper, HE Williams, and they state definitely that fixture A MUST have a neutral, but fixture B can run off of any voltage between 120 and 277V. Some fixtures definitely must have a neutral.

What I don't understand is why you don't just run it at 120V? How much wiring do you need? Why wouldn't you just play it safe and run the 120V and call it a day? This isn't even 6A of load at 120V if I remember correctly from page 1 of the thread.

It does matter. 120-277V probably means that 220 or 208V is okay. If it said, 120 or 277V it would probably mean that 220 is NOT okay. But why risk a probably?

Personally, I like to err on the side of safety.