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30v between neutral to ground when power completely off

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Emerino22

Member
Location
Los Angeles
Occupation
Electrical contractor
I was called out for a service to a house that was rewired back in 2007 and it’s an early 1900s house. It’s a duplex on one building one unit on top and one on bottom. There’s still some ridged pipes but mostly Romex pulled and all the wiring is copper the panels look ok. The issue is that the customer is getting shocked by the ground in one section of the house and I also just by touching the metal grounding components of the outlet with the thinner parts of my skin feel a burning shock. They are also complaining that the power surges from time to time and has burned out power strips And also are saying that there is radio towers nearby and can hear the radio frequency coming in from the amplifiers when they play their instruments. I went ahead and tested the lines and opened all the electrical boxes And opened the panels. I found readings on one section of the house outlets the power surge from 122 to 130V I also found When I shut off all main breakers to the both units there is still 30 V my multi meter is reading from the ground to neutral. I did find that the ground in the neutral was bonded in the sub panel but I remove that bond and the problem continues. With all power off When I go to the water pipes my beeping Voltage tester is beeping as if there Was power same thing with the gas lines or even close to the walls and the neighbors fence too another thing I noticed that they had a ceiling that was made out of aluminum or some kind of metal that they put on their ceiling of a bedroom and the problem is in that area of that bedroom. The house has two ground rods semi new panels all the electrical boxes were checked there’s no grounds connected as neutrals and I also called the city to check their neutral connections to see if that was an issue. The problem continues do you feel a shock on the metal part of the outlet that is ground even when you touch it with your screwdriver you’ll see a small spark just by touching it with metal. Is there a possibility that there can be something buried inside the walls and we might need to rewire the complete house again? What should be my next move? One more thing they do have a solar system and I’ve also tried turning that off completely and it’s still 30 V between the ground and the neutral. Maybe somebody with more experience in the field can you give me some insight and help with the situation that I don’t understand.
 

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
Have you verified verified that there is a main bonding jumper or screw in the main panel(s)? Also, did you measure the voltage from the neutral bar to the equipment ground bar in the main panel?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Okay, what is your "earth ground"? A driven rod whose conductor you have disconnected?

The point is that voltage is being measured between two points that should be electrically bonded.
 

Emerino22

Member
Location
Los Angeles
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Have you verified verified that there is a main bonding jumper or screw in the main panel(s)? Also, did you measure the voltage from the neutral bar to the equipment ground bar in the main panel?
Yes, main panel ground is bonded to neutral.
Yes, voltage is perfectly fine at 122 at the main side
 

Emerino22

Member
Location
Los Angeles
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Okay, what is your "earth ground"? A driven rod whose conductor you have disconnected?

The point is that voltage is being measured between two points that should be electrically bonded.
There’s 2 ground rods. They’re bonded at the main not at sub panels which I corrected
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
If you're taking the measurement at the service gear the main bonding jumper has to be loose or non existent.

Roger
 

Emerino22

Member
Location
Los Angeles
Occupation
Electrical contractor
If you're taking the measurement at the service gear the main bonding jumper has to be loose or non existent.

Roger
At the main all measurements are fine even the city measured and all they said was put another ground rod when there’s already 2?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Another rod is useless. This only involves the main panel. I still am asking what two points you're reading voltage between.

You know how the neutrals and grounds are supposed to be separated in a sub-panel? The opposite is true in a main panel; they must be tied together.

There is only the service neutral coming in, and all grounds and neutrals connect to that in the enclosure housing the main disconnect.

So, what is the point you'reading voltage to as compared to the above-mentioned neutral?
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Please answer Synchro and Larry's questions.

Roger
 

Emerino22

Member
Location
Los Angeles
Occupation
Electrical contractor
Another rod is useless. This only involves the main panel.

I still am asking what two points you're reading voltage between.
Yea more than 2 is pointless. On the outlet in the bedroom I’m reading 30V AC from the neutral of the outlet to the ground of the outlet. When I do neutral to hot it’s surging from 122-130
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Please answer Synchro and Larry's questions.
We're only trying to help, not criticize. Questions often trigger more questions in order to answer accurately.

So, please don't just say "the earth" unless you're sticking a screwdriver in the ground for one of the voltmeter's leads.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Yea more than 2 is pointless. On the outlet in the bedroom I’m reading 30V AC from the neutral of the outlet to the ground of the outlet. When I do neutral to hot it’s surging from 122-130
Okay, now go to the panel feeding this circuit and check neutral to ground there.

And, is this a sub-panel or the main panel?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Y'know this may be as simple as a grounding receptacle on a 2-wire circuit, or it may not be.

That's one reason voltmeters aren't as good for most troubleshooting as solenoid testers.

That and dragging around the female end of an extension cord plugged into a known-properly-wired receptacle against which to test.



Added: No, on second thought, that wouldn't provide enough current to provide shocks. Maybe it's RF energy?

What are you reading hot to ground at the receptacle?
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Y'know this may be as simple as a grounding receptacle on a 2-wire circuit, or it may not be.

That's one reason voltmeters aren't as good for most troubleshooting as solenoid testers.

That and dragging around the female end of an extension cord plugged into a known-properly-wired receptacle against which to test.



Added: No, on second thought, that wouldn't provide enough current to provide shocks. Maybe it's RF energy?

What are you reading hot to ground at the receptacle?
That’s what it’s sounding like, possible bad gfi up stream giving the fluctuating voltages on hot to neutral.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
No problem, I tried this and the voltage is 4V at the sub panel sometimes goes down to 2V never 0
That falls within normal range for neutral voltage drop for a loaded sub-panel.

So, this means the circuit has no grounding, and someone put in 3-prong receptacles.

Time to break out a cord and solenoid tester as described above.

We need to see how "real" the shocking voltage is, and where it's coming from.

Have you opened the box and pulled out the receptacle to check for how it's wired?
 
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