310.15(B)(7)(1) service?

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Ponchik

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NEC 2014
310.15(B)(7)(1) in a nutshell says the service conductors of a single family is permitted to be sized not less than 83% of the rating of the service.

What does it mean "rating of the service"? Does it mean the rating of the service equipment?

Thanks.
 
It means the nominal size of the service as assigned by the POCO. (AFAIK the service equipment needs to be rated for that current or higher although the main OCP itself may be smaller.)
That in turn must be greater than or equal to the NEC calculated load of the building(s).

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It means the nominal size of the service as assigned by the POCO.

In my opinion the POCO has nothing to do with it.

It is the size of the OCPD the conductors are supplying

So if your calculated load comes out to 92 amps, you decide to go with a 100 amp breaker, panel combination the conductors supplying it would only have to be rated 83 amps (83% of 100)
 
Isn't this just a rewording of the long standing allowance to downsize the residential service conductor size? :huh: The end result is that you can still use 4/0 AL for a 200 amp service, to use one common example.
 
In my opinion the POCO has nothing to do with it.

It is the size of the OCPD the conductors are supplying

So if your calculated load comes out to 92 amps, you decide to go with a 100 amp breaker, panel combination the conductors supplying it would only have to be rated 83 amps (83% of 100)
Can you cite code language that supports that definition of "service size"?
The conductors in question are after the service point if they are covered by the NEC, but they are directly supplied by POCO, yet are not tap conductors. It seems very unclear to me. :)

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Can you cite code language that supports that definition of "service size"?
The conductors in question are after the service point if they are covered by the NEC, but they are directly supplied by POCO, yet are not tap conductors. It seems very unclear to me. :)

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It's easier to take note of Peters post, see the old allowance for single family homes and it has morphed into this. I think George Stolz may even have had something to do with it.

The idea is the NEC knows the service calculations are overly conservative and instead of fixing that they let us fudge the wire size.

As far as the POCO I have no idea why you think they come into this.
 
Can you cite code language that supports that definition of "service size"?
The conductors in question are after the service point if they are covered by the NEC, but they are directly supplied by POCO, yet are not tap conductors. It seems very unclear to me. :)

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Where I live the service point is the load side of the meter, even though the customer service conductors are installed per NEC size and need to be inspected and approved by the local inspector before the POCO will energize them. Just the way it is.
 
Isn't this just a rewording of the long standing allowance to downsize the residential service conductor size? :huh: The end result is that you can still use 4/0 AL for a 200 amp service, to use one common example.

It is rewording but I don't think this specific wording was not in the last code cycle. Which may cause some havoc.

In my opinion the POCO has nothing to do with it.

It is the size of the OCPD the conductors are supplying

So if your calculated load comes out to 92 amps, you decide to go with a 100 amp breaker, panel combination the conductors supplying it would only have to be rated 83 amps (83% of 100)

In the informational note of that section it says it is not related to the over current protection device.
It says "The calculation is not based on the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the main feeder"
 
It is rewording but I don't think this specific wording was not in the last code cycle. Which may cause some havoc.



In the informational note of that section it says it is not related to the over current protection device.
It says "The calculation is not based on the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the main feeder"

What year NEC and were are you seeing that note?
 
What year NEC and were are you seeing that note?

NEC 2014

Now that I have read it again and again it seems like it has to do with the rating of the service equipment. For example, if the rating of the service equipment is 200Amps and I decide to install a 100A main breaker, the service conductors have to be rated at 83% of the rating of the equipment, not the 100A breaker that I have installed.

Now, if the rating of the equipment is 225A and the service equipment came with a 200A main breaker then the service conductors have to be rated at 83% of the 225A.

It seems to be worded that way. I don't know.
 

That note is not in my PDF. Odd

Now that I have read it again and again it seems like it has to do with the rating of the service equipment. For example, if the rating of the service equipment is 200Amps and I decide to install a 100A main breaker, the service conductors have to be rated at 83% of the rating of the equipment, not the 100A breaker that I have installed.

I don't believe that is the deal, it makes no sense

I am not were I can look at the soft cover or my ROPs. I will get back to it later.
 
Throwing this out there: service with 4/0 aluminum (180 amps), 200A MB, 179 amps calculated load. Does the service rating change if its a dwelling unit or not? I tend to intuitively think the service rating would go off the "weakest link".
 
Here is all of what is in 2014 - entire section was re-written from what was in 2011. Sorry formatting did not copy as original - I tried my best to rearrange to original format.

(7) 120/240-Volt, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders.


For one-family dwellings and the individual dwelling units of two-family and multifamily dwellings, service and feeder conductors supplied by a single-phase, 120/240-volt system shall be permitted be sized in accordance with 310.15(B)(7)(1) through (4).


(1) For a service rated 100 through 400 A, the service conductors supplying the entire load associated with a one-family dwelling, or the service conductors supplying the entire load associated with an individual dwelling unit in a two-family or multifamily dwelling, shall be permitted to have an ampacity not less than 83 percent of the service rating.

(2) For a feeder rated 100 through 400 A, the feeder conductors supplying the entire load associated with a onefamily dwelling, or the feeder conductors supplying the entire load associated with an individual dwelling, unit in a two-family or multifamily dwelling, shall be permitted to have an ampacity not less than 83 percent of the feeder rating.

(3) In no case shall a feeder for an individual dwelling unit be required to have an ampacity greater than that specified in 310.15(B)(7)(1) or (2).

(4) Grounded conductors shall be permitted to be sized smaller than the ungrounded conductors, provided that the requirements of 220.61 and 230.42 for service conductors or the requirements of 215.2 and 220.61 for feeder conductors are met.

Informational Note No. 1: The conductor ampacity may require other correction or adjustment factors applicable to the conductor installation.

Informational Note No. 2: See Example D7 in Annex D

This applies to any service or feeder conductor supplying an individual dwelling unit.

With no additional ampacity adjustments the conductor size you come up is the same as it was in previous editions in the table they had.

With this edition it is more clear that if you have a high ambient temp or more then three current carrying conductors in a raceway you may need to make other adjustments to these conductors. Info note 1 points that out as well.
 
NEC 2014
310.15(B)(7)(1) in a nutshell says the service conductors of a single family is permitted to be sized not less than 83% of the rating of the service.

What does it mean "rating of the service"? Does it mean the rating of the service equipment?

Thanks.

Long and Short Answer...YES, as clarified in the informational note to that section in the 2017 NEC.
 
Long and Short Answer...YES, as clarified in the informational note to that section in the 2017 NEC.

So, if I do a service upgrade and the main rating of the overcurrent is 200A but the rating of the service equipment is 225A, then my service conductor needs to be 3/0 instead of 2/0.
 
So, if I do a service upgrade and the main rating of the overcurrent is 200A but the rating of the service equipment is 225A, then my service conductor needs to be 3/0 instead of 2/0.


The minimum to be maintained is the 83%....you change anything you will need to maintain the minimum as it pertains to the rule itself in section 310.15(B)(7).

The informational note directs you to 240.6(A) which has to do with the "Fuses and Fixed-Trip Circuit Breakers" and not the rating of the actual equipment....while they both may parallel in nature...the fact is the reference is to 240.6(A).

Informational Note No. 1: The service or feeder ratings
addressed by this section are based on the standard ampacity
ratings from 240.6(A).
 
Here is the accepted change from the ROP or whatever they call it now.

________________________________________________________________
6-49a Log #CP604 NEC-P06 Final Action: Accept
(310.15(B)(7))
________________________________________________________________
TCC Action:
The Correlating Committee directs that the panel clarify
their action on this proposal.
The Correlating Committee also directs the panel to revise the
Informational Note as it contains permissive language, i.e. the word
“may”.
This action will be considered as a public comment.

Submitter:
Code-Making Panel 6,

Recommendation: Delete Table 310.15(B)(7) and replace 310.15(B)(7) with
the following:
(7) 120/240 Volt, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders. For service
and feeder conductors of 120/240-volt, single-phase, individual dwelling unit
one-family, two-family, and multifamily service ratings from 100 through 400
amperes, an adjustment factor of 0.83 of the service ampere rating shall be
permitted to be used to determine the size of the ungrounded conductors. The
grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded
conductors, provided that the requirements of 215.2, 220.61, and 230.42 are
met.

Informational No. 1: The conductor ampacity may require other correction or
adjustment factors applicable to the conductor installation.

Informational No. 2: See example DXXX in Annex D.


Substantiation: It was determined that during the 1956 Proceedings of the
Sixteenth NFPA Annual Meeting that 84 percent was used to establish the
aluminum residential service conductor size. However, if the panel used 84
percent in the changed language, it would have resulted in larger sizes for some
of the conductors, compared to the sizes in the 2011 NEC. Since the panel had
no technical substantiation to justify these changes, 83 percent was used to
maintain consistency with the sizes in the 2011 Table 310.15(B)(7).
In order to address the various proposals submitted suggesting changes to
310.15(B)(7), the panel analyzed the existing language and determined that the
conductor sizes in Table 310.15(B)(7) are equivalent to those that would be
used if a 0.83 multiplier was applied to each service ampere rating. The
resulting conductor size will be the same as existing text in Table 310.15(B)(7),
if the same conductor types and installation conditions are applied.
The informational note was added to make it clear that adjustment and
correction factors apply depending on conditions of use. This action no longer
requires the definition of a “main power feeder” in 310.15(B)(7).

Panel Meeting Action: Accept

Number Eligible to Vote: 10

Ballot Results: Affirmative: 9 Negative: 1

Explanation of Negative:
WALL, C.: Removal of the table does not add clarity or usability to the NEC.

Comment on Affirmative:
CLINE, S.: This proposal is the result of many, many hours of panel member
time over many code cycles. It is intended to clearly and easily express the
ongoing intent of the panel over these many code cycles of misinterpretation.
This wording gives a simple “duty cycle” type adjustment which, through a
simple mathematic multiplication, yields a minimum ampacity requirement for
conductor sizing. Hopefully the twelve submitters who also spent their time
trying to resolve the misunderstandings will be satisfied with this result.
It recognizes the long-known diversity of load for this exact class of load. It
recognizes that conditions of installation may also affect the ampacity of the
conductor. It recognizes that feeders, only if sized in relation to the service
rating, may safely be allowed the same diversity adjustment since they are
either carrying 100% of the diversified load, OR only loads too small to change
the effective diversity have been removed ahead of the feeder, OR large enough
loads have been removed ahead of the feeder to make the 17% adjusted
ampacity a moot point. The concerns about increased dwelling loads in general
is addressed in 230.79 where the service rating amperage itself is determined.
It should now be clear that while feeders may also use the diversity
adjustment, it must be based on the 230.79 service rating, not the size of the
OCPD for the feeder. If you run a 200 amp feeder from a 200 amp rated
service, you get to use the adjustment, start with a 166 minimum ampacity
conductor, apply any other required adjustments, and choose your conductor. If
you run a 100 amp feeder from a 200 amp rated service, you still get use the
adjustment, but of course the 166 minimum ampacity conductor then required
might not be an advantage over the normal 100 amp conductor. You may not
use 100 amps (the feeder OCPD size) to apply the adjustment to - you must use
the service rating.

Separate issue No. 1:

Please note: I believe that the following editorial changes to the new wording
recommendation of 6-49a need to be made for the publications of the Final Edited wording:
(7) 120/240-Volt, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders. For service
and feeder conductors of 120/240-volt, single-phase, individual dwelling units
of one-family, two-family, and multifamily service ratings of 100 through 400
amperes, 83 percent of the 230.79 service ampere rating shall be permitted to
be used as the minimum ampacity to determine the size of the ungrounded
conductors. The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the
ungrounded conductors, provided that the requirements of 215.2, 220.61, and
230.42 are met.

Informational Note No. 1: The conductor ampacity may require other
correction or adjustment factors applicable to the conductor installation.
Informational Note No. 2: See example DXXX in Annex D.
Editorial changes to be considered (in order of occurrence):
(Legislative text will not paste into this comment area.)

1) change “an adjustment factor of 0.83” to “83 percent”
Examples elsewhere in the code (within text sentences as opposed to within
Tables), such as 310.60(C)(2)(b), 430.122(A), 630.31(A)(1), etc, utilize the
percentage wording. It is consistent with existing NEC usage.

2) add “230.79” in front of “service ampere rating”
Direct reference to the NEC source of the “Service Rating” amperage value.
3) add “as the minimum ampacity” before “to determine”
To proactively state the mathematically obvious result of scientific units which
results from the multiplication of the service rating (amps) times 0.87 (87%),
and that it is a minimum number still subject to the other adjustments of
310.15(B).
Separate issue No. 2:
I believe that an Informational Note No. 3, showing a restructured form of
the 2011 NEC Table 310.15(B)(7), would be very helpful as a transition from
Table to adjustment factor.
The title and title heading would be unused. Only the portion of the existing
Table 310.15(B)(7) below the double line would be used, and one column
heading must be edited:
“Informational Note No. 3: Partial listing of conductor AWG or kcmil sizes
for 310.15(B)(7) applications, showing only 75°C (167°F) conductors, under
conditions of installation which do not require any other adjustments.”
The heading of the first column would need to have “or Feeder” deleted since
the relationship is always to the “Service Rating” even for feeders. It should
read “Service Rating (Amperes)” - OR it should read “230.79 Service Rating
(Amperes)” if the addition of “230.79” within the body of the 310.15(B)(7) text
is approved.
The rest of the Table could be used as-is.
“AWG or kcmil” is used purposefully in the note to avoid the ambiguity of
the word “size” as it relates to conductors. Does “size” mean “physical size” or
“ampacity”?
I believe that in general the unqualified word “size” should not be used
anywhere in the code in reference to conductors. “AWG or kcmil size” or
“ampacity” would be unambiguous terms.
Separate issue No. 3:
I recommend another Informational Note:
“Informational Note No. 4: Section 310.15(B)(7) excludes 208Y/120-Volt
supplied systems (single or three phase) due to the additional heat from the
presence of a third conductor carrying current.”
I realize that the NEC is not a design manual, but this issue is so often
misunderstood that it seems worth the print space to help assure that AHJs have
proper and easy tools to use, and to help avoid repeated proposals and
comments.


KENT, G.: This proposal is correct as a Reject, however, I disagree that
permission exists in the code to allow this type of wiring.
L
AIDLER, W.: I’m voting to accept the proposal. I would also recommend
that the editorial changes recommended by NFPA staff be incorporated into the
proposal (as stated below).
(7) 120/240-Volt, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders. For service and
feeder conductors of 120/240-volt, single-phase, individual dwelling units of
one-family, two-family, and multifamily service ratings of 100 through 400
amperes, 83 percent of the 230.79 service ampere rating shall be permitted to
be used as the minimum ampacity to determine the size of the ungrounded
conductors. The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the
ungrounded conductors, provided that the requirements of 215.2, 220.61, and
230.42 are met.
Informational Note No. 1: The conductor ampacity may require other
correction or adjustment factors applicable to the conductor installation.
Informational Note No. 2: See example DXXX in Annex D.
These recommended changes will provide better clarity for the user on how
to apply this new language.

Sorry about the formatting I fixed it up some.
 
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