312.7(A) Used as Pull or Junction Boxes

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ibew441dc

Senior Member
2008 NEC said:
312.7 Space in Enclosures. Cabinets and cutout boxes
shall have sufficient space to accommodate all conductors
installed in them without crowding.
IBEW441dc said:
312.7(A) Used as Pull or Junction Boxes.
Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter
Socket Enclosures, used as pull or junction boxes
shall comply with 314.28(A) through (D).
IBEW441dc said:
Substantiation- Add requirement to correlate with standard trade practice.
I have found that ideas with good intentions and valid reasons are the easy part.....the "substantiation" is the tough one.....Any ideas?
 
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ibew441dc

Senior Member
Yeh or nay?

Yeh or nay?

New Section in Article 312

IBEW441dc said:
312.7(A) Used as Pull or Junction Boxes.
Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter
Socket Enclosures, used as pull or junction boxes
shall comply with 314.28(A) through (D).
IBEW441dc said:
Substantiation- Add requirement to correlate with standard trade practice.
No chops and/or suggestions?
 

ibew441dc

Senior Member
Oh! Jeez, I was looking back through the old Codes trying to find it.


So 312.7 should become 312.7(A) and your new text be added as 312.7(B).
No, I think 312.7 should remain......and 312.7(A) should be added. I feel that it would be placed in the appropriate spot, due to the charging language in 312.7.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
No, I think 312.7 should remain......and 312.7(A) should be added. I feel that it would be placed in the appropriate spot, due to the charging language in 312.7.

In order for it to be added, it should either be incorporated into 312.7, or the two seperated into (A) and (B). It's part of the numbering system used. The Code is not written with Article nnn.x and nnn.x(A), it would be nnn.x(A) and nnn.x(B).
 
I actually think it would fit better as
312.8(A) Raceways and Cables Entering Enclosures for Switches and Overcurrent Devices.
...........your language.

Substantion:
When enclosures for overcurrent devices are used as a means of splicing and/or a junction box for conductors of 4/0 or larger, a new subsecion is necessary to properly enforce the spacing of raceways and requirements of 314.28 are to be met. Yet, there is no language here to provide for the installer to follow. As an inspector (thats me;)) , I constantly see the installers not spacing the raceway/cables the proper distance. By adding this new subsection, the use of enclosures as a junction box for larger conductors will be properly adhered to in regards to sizing and placement of the raceway/cables entries.

This is a quick thought, and will need some massaging to make more sense than it does as I wrote it...get to work :grin:
 

ibew441dc

Senior Member
312.8

312.8

I actually think it would fit better as
312.8(A) Raceways and Cables Entering Enclosures for Switches and Overcurrent Devices.
...........your language.
I disagree with the placement in section 312.8, simply because there are times when an installation includes a cabinet or cut-out box with no switches or overcurrent devices. One example of this would be a Type 3R Cut-Out box installed outdoors with ....say...a 4'' coming in the bottom, and a 4'' out of the top. In this example the Cut-Out box is being used for a pull or junction box, and there is no language to support a violation of installing a cut-out box that is 12x12x4. In the same installation of a P/J Box the enclosure would have to at the very least be 6 times the largest raceway.
 
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ibew441dc

Senior Member
Your last post...would that not be a junction box?

No, it would be a Cutout Box without switches or overcurrent devices. A Cutout box does not (as of now) have comply with 314.28.

Article 100
Cutout Box. An enclosure designed for surface mounting
that has swinging doors or covers secured directly to and
telescoping with the walls of the box proper.
Article 100
Cabinet.
An enclosure that is designed for either surface
mounting or flush mounting and is provided with a frame,
mat, or trim in which a swinging door or doors are or can
be hung.
There is no rule for a Cabinet or a Cutout Box, where used for pull or junction purposes, to comply with 314.28.

UL Whitebook
Cabinets and Cutout Boxes (CYIV)
Cutout boxes are provided with a door secured by hinges and one or more fasteners and are intended for surface mounting.
UL Whitebook
Boxes, Junction and Pull(BGUZ)
This category covers sheet-metal boxes, cast-metal boxes, and nonmetallic
boxes. These boxes are provided with a cover secured by fasteners
other than hinges.
 

ibew441dc

Senior Member
Chopping Block.....

Chopping Block.....

Substantion:
When enclosures for overcurrent devices are used as a means of splicing and/or a junction box for conductors of 4/0 or larger, a new subsecion is necessary to properly enforce the spacing of raceways and requirements of 314.28 are to be met. Currently, there is no language to provide for the installer to follow. As an inspector (thats me;)) , I constantly see the installers not spacing the raceway/cables the proper distance. By adding this new subsection, the use of enclosures as a junction box for larger conductors will be properly adhered to in regards to sizing and placement of the raceway/cables entries.

This is a quick thought, and will need some massaging to make more sense than it does as I wrote it...get to work :grin:
Okay Ive massaged it a little:wink: Feel free to return the favor:smile:

Substantiation:
When a Cabinet or Cutout Box is used as a Pull and/or a Junction Box for conductors 4AWG and larger, a new subsection is necessary to properly enforce the requirements of 314.28. Currently, there is no language for the installer to follow. As a Certified Commercial Inspector (thats me:grin:) , I have witnessed a Cutout Box being used in place of a Pull/Junction Box, thus not required to comply with 312. By adding this new subsection, the use of a Cabinet or Cutout Box, used as a junction box for conductors 4AWG and larger,will be properly adhered to in regards to sizing and placement of the raceway entries.
 
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ibew441dc

Senior Member
IBEW441dc said:
312.7 Space in Enclosures.
Cabinets and cutout boxes
shall have sufficient space to accommodate all conductors
installed in them without crowding.

312.7(A) Used as Pull or Junction Boxes.
Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter
Socket Enclosures, used as pull or junction boxes
shall comply with 314.28(A) through (D).


Substantiation:
When a Cabinet or Cutout Box is used as a Pull and/or Junction Box for conductors 4AWG and larger, a new subsection is necessary to properly enforce the requirements of 314.28. Currently, there is no language for the installer to follow. As a Certified Commercial Inspector, I have witnessed a Cutout Box being used in place of a Pull/Junction Box, to avoid restrictions included in 314.28. By adding this new subsection, the use of a Cabinet or Cutout Box, used as a junction box for conductors 4AWG and larger,will be properly adhered to in regards to sizing and placement of the raceway entries.
I still think it needs some work??? Also I made an error in my last post and did not catch it in time....[(thus not required to comply with 312) should be 314]
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
It is my opinion that Article 314 already covers this. I do agree that "cabinets" and "cutout" boxes do not show up in that article, but look at the scope of the article.
314.1 Scope.
This article covers the installation and use of all boxes and conduit bodies used as outlet, device, junction, or pull boxes, ...
In the proposal the cabinet or cutout box is being used as a pull or junction box and the rules in 314 apply.
 

ryan_618

Senior Member
I would like to see what CMP-9 would say. I would include the photo from the other thread, and simply say in your substanation that the current rules don't seem to prohibit the practice.
 
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