320 2gang meter socket with 2 200amp main breakers

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pmoney44

Member
Location
MASSACHUSETTS
I am installing a 320 2 gang meter socket with 2 200 amp main breakers...commercial building with 2 businesses...first panel in located directly behind meter socket so a 2inch PVC nipple with be used for that panel. Other panel in installed in basement of building for fitness club 20-30 ft away..my question is...can I run se cable through building or am I to hard pipe feeders.for some reason I recollect hearing something during continuing ed about not using se cable through
Buildings..thanks in advance..
 

hurk27

Senior Member
I am installing a 320 2 gang meter socket with 2 200 amp main breakers...commercial building with 2 businesses...first panel in located directly behind meter socket so a 2inch PVC nipple with be used for that panel. Other panel in installed in basement of building for fitness club 20-30 ft away..my question is...can I run se cable through building or am I to hard pipe feeders.for some reason I recollect hearing something during continuing ed about not using se cable through
Buildings..thanks in advance..

You are going to have two problems with that install, First is 230.70(A)(1) requires that the service disconnect to be outside or inside nearest to the point of entrance, service entrance conductors are not protected and will burn free if they ever short out which could cause a fire, it has nothing to do with putting them in pipe, the distance allow inside is left up to the AHJ of your area.

Second problem is 230.72 Grouping of the disconnects, if you install the main breaker behind the meter then the disconnect for the other store would have to be right next to it, then this would be a problem with meeting the requirements of all occupancies having access to their disconnect, the only thing I can see feasible is to have two disconnects mounted outside on each side of the meter for each panel.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
You are going to have two problems with that install, First is 230.70(A)(1) requires that the service disconnect to be outside or inside nearest to the point of entrance, service entrance conductors are not protected and will burn free if they ever short out which could cause a fire, it has nothing to do with putting them in pipe, the distance allow inside is left up to the AHJ of your area.

Second problem is 230.72 Grouping of the disconnects, if you install the main breaker behind the meter then the disconnect for the other store would have to be right next to it, then this would be a problem with meeting the requirements of all occupancies having access to their disconnect, the only thing I can see feasible is to have two disconnects mounted outside on each side of the meter for each panel.

Wayne I think he has a meter base combo-- meter has breakers hence the ser.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
You are going to have two problems with that install, First is 230.70(A)(1) requires that the service disconnect to be outside or inside nearest to the point of entrance, service entrance conductors are not protected and will burn free if they ever short out which could cause a fire, it has nothing to do with putting them in pipe, the distance allow inside is left up to the AHJ of your area.

Second problem is 230.72 Grouping of the disconnects, if you install the main breaker behind the meter then the disconnect for the other store would have to be right next to it, then this would be a problem with meeting the requirements of all occupancies having access to their disconnect, the only thing I can see feasible is to have two disconnects mounted outside on each side of the meter for each panel.
Yes if the meter center does not have feeder breakers, but I took the OP as saying there were feeder breakers in the meter center. I guess we need clarification.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
I am installing a 320 2 gang meter socket with 2 200 amp main breakers...commercial building with 2 businesses...first panel in located directly behind meter socket so a 2inch PVC nipple with be used for that panel. Other panel in installed in basement of building for fitness club 20-30 ft away..my question is...can I run se cable through building or am I to hard pipe feeders.for some reason I recollect hearing something during continuing ed about not using se cable through
Buildings..thanks in advance..

I don't know of any restriction for using SE in a building. Being that it is commercial, make sure to run full size SE for the load.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Being that it is commercial, make sure to run full size SE for the load.

Why? If load is only 100 amps and you decide to run a 200 amp circuit , you only need 100 amp conductor for the load, but because the overcurrent protection is 200 amps you must have a conductor with at least 176 amps of ampacity.
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Wayne I think he has a meter base combo-- meter has breakers hence the ser.

Yes if the meter center does not have feeder breakers, but I took the OP as saying there were feeder breakers in the meter center. I guess we need clarification.

Yep one of my usual blunders when in a hurry because the wify is yelling from the living room to come see something:ashamed1:
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
Why? If load is only 100 amps and you decide to run a 200 amp circuit , you only need 100 amp conductor for the load, but because the overcurrent protection is 200 amps you must have a conductor with at least 176 amps of ampacity.
You are correct. And if that were aluminum SE in insulation it would be 300MCM...if you could find it at the supply house.
 
I don't know of any restriction for using SE in a building. Being that it is commercial, make sure to run full size SE for the load.

...Unless it is a place of assembly. Dont we always have to run conductors with an ampacity equal to or greater than the load?

Second problem is 230.72 Grouping of the disconnects, if you install the main breaker behind the meter then the disconnect for the other store would have to be right next to it, then this would be a problem with meeting the requirements of all occupancies having access to their disconnect, the only thing I can see feasible is to have two disconnects mounted outside on each side of the meter for each panel.

unless it is a multiple occupancy building - 230.72 ex and 230.40 ex 1
 
One more thing: note that the term "occupancy" likely has a specific legal definition by your building department and multiple tenants doesnt mean multiple occupancies. Almost got bit by that once when I almost assumed there were two occupancies in a building. Fortunately I checked with the building dept and found it there was only one.
 

shortcircuit2

Senior Member
Location
South of Bawstin
...Unless it is a place of assembly. Dont we always have to run conductors with an ampacity equal to or greater than the load?

The rules that apply to a place of assembly only apply to the area of the building that would have 100 people or more. I doubt that would be where service equipment is located.

For residential services we are allowed to use 4/0 Aluminum SE cable for a 200amp service if the load was calculated at 200amps according to table 310.15(B)(7)...
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
One more thing: note that the term "occupancy" likely has a specific legal definition by your building department and multiple tenants doesnt mean multiple occupancies. Almost got bit by that once when I almost assumed there were two occupancies in a building. Fortunately I checked with the building dept and found it there was only one.

I am not following you. :?
 

Sahib

Senior Member
Location
India
I am not following you. :?
Suppose in a building one portion is occupied by a workshop and the remaining as a residence for the workshop staff. Then the building has two classes of occupancy but if the entire building is occupied by the workshop, it is a single occupancy building.
 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
Suppose in a building one portion is occupied by a workshop and the remaining as a residence for the workshop staff. Then the building has two classes of occupancy but if the entire building is occupied by the workshop, it is a single occupancy building.

He said multiple tenants, your example is not on point. Perhaps the person who said and who I asked can explain it better.
 
The rules that apply to a place of assembly only apply to the area of the building that would have 100 people or more. I doubt that would be where service equipment is located.

For residential services we are allowed to use 4/0 Aluminum SE cable for a 200amp service if the load was calculated at 200amps according to table 310.15(B)(7)...

Correct. But it could be a big open space with a panel on the wall. If that was the case would the se be ok if it was behind 5/8 drywall?

Iwire - if you see a building with 2 tenants is it 2 occupancies?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Correct. But it could be a big open space with a panel on the wall. If that was the case would the se be ok if it was behind 5/8 drywall?

Iwire - if you see a building with 2 tenants is it 2 occupancies?

I say it has two occupants, but may have 1 occupancy type or two occupancy types when it comes to what codes may apply to each part.


What exactly do we have with say a large airport where there is continuous building possibly for thousands of feet in some of them, but different types of occupants in each section of the building, ranging from shops, to restaurants, to assembly areas, to maintenance areas, and so on.

SE cable behind 5/8 drywall in a place of assembly - I say not allowed. I think you could have it behind a 1 hr wall, but not within the 1 hr wall, and it would be considered not to be in the place of assembly.

Rooms adjacent to the room that is a place of assembly is fine. Chances are building codes require 1 hour construction between the place of assembly and any adjacent areas not considered a place of assembly.
 
The NEC does not define "occupancy". I take this lack of a definition to mean that is up to the local building department and/or AHJ to define. I think generally the term "occupancy" means a lot more than "space", "tenant", "Spaces that are in the same building but have no interior door connecting them", etc. Sort of Hijacking this thread but i would be curious how this is dealt with elsewhere. Say you want to run two sets of service entrance conductors to different occupancies allowed by the code sections I quoted earlier. When are you allowed to do that? Do you just say "there's no interior door connecting the two units so Its two occupancies"? I Also think that you can have multiple occupancies even though they are all of the same type. The situation I was involved in where this came up was in the city of Seattle. We were looking to split a 400A 277/480 service into 2 200's, one for each tenant. It was a difficult situation with no common area and no space for outdoor equipment and disconnects so I investigated running a service entrance conductor set to each unit. Some discussion with the building department revealed that this was a single occupancy so I could not use 230.40 ex 1. I asked what it would take to legally make this two occupancies and they said there were specific fire separation requirements and zoning would likely come into play also.
 

LEO2854

Esteemed Member
Location
Ma
The NEC does not define "occupancy".
I take this lack of a definition to mean that is up to the local building department and/or AHJ to define.
I think generally the term "occupancy" means a lot more than "space", "tenant", "Spaces that are in the same building but have no interior door connecting them", etc.
Sort of Hijacking this thread but i would be curious how this is dealt with elsewhere.
Say you want to run two sets of service entrance conductors to different occupancies allowed by the code sections I quoted earlier.
When are you allowed to do that?
Do you just say "there's no interior door connecting the two units so Its two occupancies"?
I Also think that you can have multiple occupancies even though they are all of the same type.

The situation I was involved in where this came up was in the city of Seattle.
We were looking to split a 400A 277/480 service into 2 200's, one for each tenant.
It was a difficult situation with no common area and no space for outdoor equipment and disconnects so I investigated running a service entrance conductor set to each unit.
Some discussion with the building department revealed that this was a single occupancy so I could not use 230.40 ex 1.
I asked what it would take to legally make this two occupancies and they said there were specific fire separation requirements and zoning would likely come into play also.

I would not do that either.
 
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