36 inches clearance

[Highlow]

Hello to every one.
The question would be about 36 inch clearance on the computer floor.
We have panels that are not in use and with no breakers in them and still hot.
The cover has been installed on the inside, so you can't get your hands to the buss bar. I would like to know if you still have to maintain the clearance in front of those panels. Can the customers block them in any way? Like chairs, cabinets etc. Your input would be appreciated!
Thanks.

 

[charlie b]

The simple answers are (1) Yes you must still maintain clearance, and (2) No, they can?t put chairs or other stuff in the area that is required to be kept clear.

This is a safety consideration, and it goes beyond the present use of the equipment. Someday, breakers will be put into the panels. And although we can say that it should not be done while the panel is energized, you cannot prove today that it will not happen tomorrow. So the clearance must be maintained.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I will agree with Charlie.

 

[charlie]

Charlie is not technically correct because there is no equipment likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized at the present time. However, he is correct in his reasoning. Following that same line of reasoning, I can not imagine anyone thinking that a panelboard would remain unused. Any entity that has installed a panelboard anywhere will eventually use it for some purpose or they would not have put the money out to install it in the first place. :smile:

 

[cowboyjwc]

I will agree with Charlie

 

[petersonra]

Hello to every one.
The question would be about 36 inch clearance on the computer floor.
We have panels that are not in use and with no breakers in them and still hot.
The cover has been installed on the inside, so you can't get your hands to the buss bar. I would like to know if you still have to maintain the clearance in front of those panels. Can the customers block them in any way? Like chairs, cabinets etc. Your input would be appreciated!
Thanks.

I don't see how a chair impedes access as it can be easily moved. its like saying no one can walk into the working space because it blocks access to the working space.

(A) Working Space. Working space for equipment operating
at 600 volts, nominal, or less to ground and likely to
require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance
while energized shall comply with the dimensions of
110.26(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3) or as required or permitted
elsewhere in this Code.

IMO, an unused panel board without breakers in it is not likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized.

 

[charlie]

I don't see how a chair impedes access as it can be easily moved. . .

Sorry, I looked at the chair as storage of a chair, boxes, cabinets, etc. If is just a normal office chair and used for sitting instead of piling things for temporary storage, I agree with you. And as before, Charlie is not technically correct . . .

 

[charlie b]

Charlie is not technically correct because there is no equipment likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized at the present time.

I am going to disagree with you on this one. There are no words in 110.26 that would limit its applicability to the present tense. The opening sentence of 110.26(A) speaks of equipment ?likely to require examination. . . while energized.? The notion of ?likely to require? is not limited to ?likely to happen today.? I could walk up to any breaker panel and say that no work is scheduled for today, so I don?t need working clearance today.

Is a panel without breakers any less likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance, while energized, than a panel with breakers? Probably so. But does that put it into the realm of ?not likely? to require any of those things? Not if there is a thermography program in use. Also, not if someone wants to put breakers into that panel someday (and we must presume that that will happen someday). As I said, I hope that they would turn the panel off, before putting in breakers. But we can?t prove, today, that the panel won?t be worked on live tomorrow. If it is possible, whatever the degree of likelihood, that a breaker would be installed while the panel is live, then 110.26 comes into play today, not just on the day the breaker is installed.

 

[charlie b]

If is just a normal office chair and used for sitting instead of piling things for temporary storage, I agree with you.

I am going to disagree with you on this one as well. The requirement to keep the working space clear is not limited to keeping it clear of stuff that is easy to move. Who is to say that on the day an electrician comes by to do something inside the panel, something that is critical to the company and that won?t wait, the person who works at that desk isn?t going to be working on something else that is also critical to the company, and that also won?t wait. There is only one way to make sure that the electrician doesn?t have to work around a chair, or desk, or box of paper. More importantly, there is only one way to make sure the electrician doesn?t give in to pressure, doesn?t convince himself or herself that they can squeeze into the smaller space because it is only a quick and simple task, and that it would be too much unnecessary trouble to argue with the person sitting at the desk, or too much unnecessary trouble to push the boxes out of the way. What is the one and only way to avoid such situations? You never let anything be in that space. Period.

But do the words in the NEC, as written, prohibit having a chair in the space? The words, in 110.26(C), say that the space shall not be used for ?storage.? If an office chair is within the space, and if the chair is used by a person sitting at an office desk, does that comprise ?storage?? I think we can, and should, answer that question ?yes.?

 

[petersonra]

I am going to disagree with you on this one. There are no words in 110.26 that would limit its applicability to the present tense. The opening sentence of 110.26(A) speaks of equipment ?likely to require examination. . . while energized.? The notion of ?likely to require? is not limited to ?likely to happen today.? I could walk up to any breaker panel and say that no work is scheduled for today, so I don?t need working clearance today.

Is a panel without breakers any less likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance, while energized, than a panel with breakers? Probably so. But does that put it into the realm of ?not likely? to require any of those things? Not if there is a thermography program in use. Also, not if someone wants to put breakers into that panel someday (and we must presume that that will happen someday). As I said, I hope that they would turn the panel off, before putting in breakers. But we can?t prove, today, that the panel won?t be worked on live tomorrow. If it is possible, whatever the degree of likelihood, that a breaker would be installed while the panel is live, then 110.26 comes into play today, not just on the day the breaker is installed.

examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance
Is installing a breaker in the panel board any of those things?

If so than every electrical receptacle and every light switch needs the working space, as does every light fixture.

 

[jim dungar]

If it is possible, whatever the degree of likelihood, that a breaker would be installed while the panel is live, then 110.26 comes into play today, not just on the day the breaker is installed.

Likely is not defined in the NEC, therefore we need to look at the dictionary. According to the Merriam Webster online dictionary likely is first defined as: "having a high probability of occurring or being true : very probable".

This is not the same as "whatever degree of likelihood". Just because something is possible does not make it likely.

 

[charlie b]

examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance: Is installing a breaker in the panel board any of those things?

I would call it ?servicing.? More to the point, I think it likely that most AHJs would insist on a panelboard having working space, even if there are not yet any breakers installed. All they need do is assert that it is likely that the panel will be examined while energized.

If so than every electrical receptacle and every light switch needs the working space, as does every light fixture.

I think that most AHJs would not assert that such devices are ?likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance? while energized.

 

[charlie b]

According to the Merriam Webster online dictionary likely is first defined as. . . .

Nothing requires us to use the first definition in one particular source, as opposed to the second or third definition in another source. My dictionary (the old, paper kind) includes, in its first definition of ?likely,? the phrase ?apparently destined.? In its second definition, in includes the phrase ?reasonably to be expected.? So I submit that it would be within the scope of the AHJ?s power to declare that if we cannot prove it will not happen, then we must make allowances for it actually happening someday.

 

[jim dungar]

So I submit that it would be within the scope of the AHJ?s power to declare that if we cannot prove it will not happen, then we must make allowances for it actually happening someday.

It is impossible to prove something will never occur. So, your argument suggests the AHJ must treat the condition as always occurring, even though the NEC specifically uses the would likely, which infers there could be conditions where the activity might not occur.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Somebody has to make the final decision on whether it's right or wrong. That authority is given to the AHJ by the NEC in article 90.4.

If we let you guys decide, it would be total chaos out there.:grin: Only kidding please not nasty PM's.:grin:

 

[charlie]

Somebody has to make the final decision on whether it's right or wrong. That authority is given to the AHJ by the NEC in article 90.4. . .

This is an interesting discussion. However, this post goes to the core of our argument. :smile:

 

[petersonra]

Somebody has to make the final decision on whether it's right or wrong. That authority is given to the AHJ by the NEC in article 90.4.

If we let you guys decide, it would be total chaos out there.:grin: Only kidding please not nasty PM's.:grin:

Is anything in article 90 enforcable?

 

[charlie]

Is anything in article 90 enforceable?

Depends on how the local laws are written.

 

[cowboyjwc]

We adopt it.

 

[Rockyd]

Is anything in article 90 enforcable?

If an inspector posts a "Cease and Desist order" you will find out just how much power they do have! Once you irritate the AHJ to that point, life is not going to be good...for quite a while!