4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

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Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Jim, on many commercial projects there may be only one conduit going to any switch or receptacle, the conduit or cable may have incoming and outgoing conductors, how can this method be considered "Dead End" when this is the case?

A "Dead End" could conceivably be the last receptacle on a circuit with only "One Ungrounded" and "One Grounded" conductor conectected to it.

Roger
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Roger,
I agree with Jim. A cable that terminates in a box with no other cables is "physically" dead ended. This term has nothing to do with the electrical connections or functions.
Don
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Jim, on many commercial projects there may be only one conduit going to any switch or receptacle, the conduit or cable may have incoming and outgoing conductors, how can this method be considered "Dead End" when this is the case?

A "Dead End" could conceivably be the last receptacle on a circuit with only "One Ungrounded" and "One Grounded" conductor conectected to it.

Roger yes the last receptacle would be called the dead end
As to the wires being in conduit does change things a bit ,but the way it is spliced would be the determining issue.Other wires simply passing thru the box changes nothing.
I know you understand that it will work the only thing we are doing is giving the switch a name to describe how it is wired.
Just what would you care to call a 3 way switch that lets say has 12-3 romex running to it and no other cables ?
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Don, I don't agree, when some one refers to a "Dead End" of a circuit it would mean conductors, not raceways or cables.

Back to a switch, how can a switch by it's function be a "Dead End"?

Is a "Wire Nut" a "Dead End" or a "connection" to extend the circuit in a similar (but semi permanent) fashion of a "Switch"?

Roger
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Jim,
Just what would you care to call a 3 way switch that lets say has 12-3 romex running to it and no other cables ?
Click to expand...
I would say this is the correct way to wire a three way.

This would mean there would be no net current.

This in its very nature would mean it could not be a "Dead End".

Roger
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

yes a wire nut could take the place of a switch.This does not change the typical name applied to this switch.
Often we feed 1 end of a 3 way switch and take the switch leg from the other.This is only 1 of several ways to wire 3 ways.
In reality a BACK SWITCH is also a DEAD END SWITCH.
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Jim, so you say: Hey you, Dead End those wires.

I don't know anyone who would think to make a connection with a wire nut. :roll:

They would "Cap" the conductors, not "Join" them.

You still haven't explained how a switch can be a "Dead End".

Forget about conduit and cable, take a piece of control equipment with internal switches, can a switch within this equipment be a "Dead End" ?

A switch extends a circuit, it doesn't end a circuit.

Roger

[ August 05, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

I might tell my man to wire it as a dead end switch at one of the switches and if he is a journeyman i think he would understand what i wanted.
And yes i would use a wire nut to temporarily operate a light.Actually have several of them right now till the switches arive.
We are not talking about control equipment here just switching for lights or receptacles in a building.
DEAD END is just a term used and does not mean it is DEAD.
Maybe some others will try to exsplain this better
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Sorry Jim, there is not a better explanation, a switch can not be a dead end in any wirng method.

If you want to forget the wiring and strictly discuss raceway or cableing, you could use the terminology, but not with the word switch.

Roger
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Roger,
This is a very common "field" terminology in my area. Any box that has a single cable has a "dead ended" cable. The term has nothing to do with the electrical circuit. It is just a commonly used term for the end of a cable. And it is just like a "dead end" road...you can turn around and go back where you came from...the electrons do the same.
Don
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Don, if we are going to concern ourselves with the correct terminology of "Grounding" verse " Bonding" or "Grounded Conductor" verse "Neutral" where in given situations neither of these are correct, then where does the selectivity come to play in this wrong terminology.

Of course if you look at my other posts, you will see where I said if we are talking about cableing or raceways the terminology could be used.

It may be as common in your geographical area as any other terms, but when talking about a switch, it is not in my area.

It was also not in FL the first 15 years of my career. Jim is not from FL, so it maybe a geographical slang term.

Roger

[ August 05, 2004, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Roger what would you call a switch box that has a hot feed and 2 travellers in it and tha`ts all??
Yes it is a slang term here and probably used elsewhere too.Ask someone here for a 1900 box and they will look at you like you had 2 heads,but ask for a 4 sq. and you`ll get a 1900 box.The term dead ended 3 way or dead ended switch leg or as this thread started as a dead ended 4 way,simply means there will be only one cable terminating on the switching device.Same holds for a receptacle to dead end a receptacle simply means the end of that circuit. ;)
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

It is a term i was taught 22 years ago when my wiring career began in Naples Florida.It is just like any other term or name used in this field and perhaps just never hit your area.Ask a fellow electrician to hand you his KLEINS and he will hand you his linesman plowers.Or to tell a man to use BATWINGS or REDEYES.
Being you know how the switches work the only problem your having is over the name we used.I like Allen,s dead end street idea.
I have come across a few electricians that think switches must be fed at 1 end and load at other.If there willing to learn i will show them the other ways.
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Allen,
Same holds for a receptacle to dead end a receptacle simply means the end of that circuit.
Click to expand...
this is what I've already said, a receptacle can be the end of a circuit, a switch can not. You are talking about cableing or raceways.

what would you call a switch box that has a hot feed and 2 travellers in it and tha`ts all??
Click to expand...
As I said before, this would be the proper way to wire a three way, and the only permitted way (with the absence of a grounded conductor) if inductive conduit or cable were used.

Roger
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Roger
I have worked in this field for about 30 years and have moved around the country a few times so I know how cornfussing it can get when I get into a new area. The first time I moved from Florida to Indiana It was like I had to learn what every thing was called all over again as it was even worse back then. now with the Internet I have seen slangs becoming more common now Like the term "Dead End" is very common in most areas and most electrican's here or there now know what a 1900 box is. Like what Allen said a few years ago you would get a weired look if you went into a supply house and asked for a 1900 box around here as they would have no clue what you were talking about,( I don't even think Raco even uses that number anymore) but now it very common for any plug, switch and even a light opening to be called a dead end if only one cable runs to it.
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Around here the last receptacle on a circuit is commonly called the "deadend". I have never heard it applied to a switch though.
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Hello Wayne, it's as John says, a receptacle can be, and is refereed to as a Dead End at the end of a circuit, but it simply can not apply to a switch.

If we are talking about a raceway or a cable to a box, I can see it being used, but I can't recall ever using the term for this.

Back to the example of a conduit installation where all device boxes are fed with one conduit, how would the term "Dead End" explain the intent
to the people you are instructing?

You would have to add description such as pull a hot and a set of travelers to that box, or pull two sets of travelers to that box, the term "Dead End" would not be enough description to effectively communicate.


Roger
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Ok let's look at it this way:
Back when spidering was popular (Oh No another slang) we use to say dead end every thing out of the light box. This would mean that the circuit home run was run to the light and only one cable from the light ran to each device including a switch in which the white was remarked a hot and black was brought back as the switch leg to the fixture. ( Whoops I meant luminaire) :D

It's just a term that a lot of us use to identify any device wired with only one cable or conduit that the wires only terminate on this device.

And yes you could say it is the that it the end of the run of cable or conduit that is what we are identifying
 
Re: 4/C NMB and FOUR WAY SWITCH

Wayne, so wouldn't it be easier to say; "go wire that building and just Dead End every circuit into the Panel"? This would mean we could forget about the individual device boxes, and say every cable or raceway is "Dead Ended" at some point. :D

I had really never given this any thought.

I also made it a point more than once, that as far as cabling or raceways are concerned the term could make some sense.

I have been talking about wiring and conductors from my first post, I didn't try to hide that.

Roger

[ August 06, 2004, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
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