4-Way Switch

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infinity

infinity

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Don't have the book in front of me, do you 4-way switches require a neutral at the switch when using NM cable without future access?
 
I assume you want 2011.. 2014 changes and it is only required at one location where multiple switches are used.

(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.
Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have
suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension
of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the
conductors in the raceway are required to be increased
in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.
Click to expand...
 
Here is the 2014

(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. The grounded
circuit conductor for the controlled lighting circuit shall be
provided at the location where switches control lighting
loads that are supplied by a grounded general-purpose
branch circuit for other than the following:
(1) Where conductors enter the box enclosing the switch
through a raceway, provided that the raceway is large
enough for all contained conductors, including a
grounded conductor
(2) Where the box enclosing the switch is accessible for
the installation of an additional or replacement cable
without removing finish materials
(3) Where snap switches with integral enclosures comply
with 300.15(E)
(4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or
bathroom
(5) Where multiple switch locations control the same lighting
load such that the entire floor area of the room or
space is visible from the single or combined switch
locations
(6) Where lighting in the area is controlled by automatic
means
(7) Where a switch controls a receptacle load
Click to expand...
 
Is it true this requirement has to do with facilitating occupancy sensors? The words "Where the entire floor space is visible" seem to indicate that.

I just dead-ended a 3-way at the bottom of the stairs because the only reasonable place for the switch was on a cinder block wall with 2X4 studs laid flat against the cement and not a lot of room to run cables up that wall. Inspector was fine with it, but I'm pretty sure it is a code violation.
 
GoldDigger said:
Which would not require an unobstructed view of the area covered.
Click to expand...

Maybe I want to see the time clock from anywhere. :p


Of course you are right about that yet still the code section was added to address any switch box mounted device that was using the EGC as a circuit conductor as many occ sensors and time clocks did.
 
iwire said:
Maybe I want to see the time clock from anywhere. :p


Of course you are right about that yet still the code section was added to address any switch box mounted device that was using the EGC as a circuit conductor as many occ sensors and time clocks did.
Click to expand...
How many of those automatic controls were replacing a three way or four way switch and leaving the original switching scheme as it was?
 
infinity said:
Has anyone ever seen a device that could replace the 4-way switch?
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I guess that was indirectly part of my previous question. Even three ways can be a little questionable. If you get multi-sensor/switch systems, how many of them use the three/four way traveler conductors in same manner as a typical set of toggle switches does? Many I believe are a master/slave system where you don't even need direct wiring between the master/slaves.

If you put multiple "single pole" occupancy sensors in place of a three/four way switching scheme, so that they are in parallel to one another you free up a conductor (hopefully a white conductor) that can be used as a neutral for powering the device, four way switches can still be tricky depending on how wiring was run.
 
kwired said:
I guess that was indirectly part of my previous question. Even three ways can be a little questionable. If you get multi-sensor/switch systems, how many of them use the three/four way traveler conductors in same manner as a typical set of toggle switches does? Many I believe are a master/slave system where you don't even need direct wiring between the master/slaves.

If you put multiple "single pole" occupancy sensors in place of a three/four way switching scheme, so that they are in parallel to one another you free up a conductor (hopefully a white conductor) that can be used as a neutral for powering the device, four way switches can still be tricky depending on how wiring was run.
Click to expand...

So after all of that is the neutral required at the 4-way switch say for a stair case or multiple rooms?
 
infinity said:
So after all of that is the neutral required at the 4-way switch say for a stair case or multiple rooms?
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My opinion? - NO. Code requirement? - IDK, is not all that clear.

I think this is a design issue and shouldn't be a code rule in the first place.
 
kwired said:
My opinion? - NO. Code requirement? - IDK, is not all that clear.

I think this is a design issue and shouldn't be a code rule in the first place.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. This section's wording can use some work. :)
 
infinity said:
So after all of that is the neutral required at the 4-way switch say for a stair case or multiple rooms?
Click to expand...

This is an intriguing question. I'll admit the Holy Writ's enforceable language is not the most precise, but what really intrigues me is the question about multi-point switching with available manufacturer's electronic controls. Especially the multiple occupancy sensor on a threeway / fourway switching setup.

So I went to Lutron and found this set of application notes and you will note at "5C" a description of using a Lutron occupancy sensor to replace a fourway switch, and that there are models of Lutron occupancy sensors that require a neutral in this situation.

Without doing any more searching, I will just bet that there are other interesting multi-point occupancy sensor solutions made by other manufacturers that, in fact, have multiple sensors on a simple threeway / fourway scheme, and that some of them will require neutrals.

So, to me, the answer to your question is that the choice of specific make and model of electronic switch has to be committed to BEFORE the wiring between switches is run. The answer to your question of whether a neutral is required at a fourway is driven by the switch installation instruction requirements.
 
How about making it illegal to use the EGC for a grounded conductor for the manufacturers? They're the ones creating the problem, not electricians failing to provide a neutral.
 
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