400 amp Service Rated Generac Transfer Switch

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Daolin

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Location
North East Florida
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Electrician
Hello there, First time poster but professional lurker. I'd like to start off with this. I've been doing electrical work for 20+ years with only on the job training and experience. I do have a Master License and strive to do everything 100% safe and right. I always attempt to figure out the right ways to do things from the code and have no problem asking other professionals how to do things the right way. I don't know all of the code like many of you do, but I do brush up on it every time I'm delving into something unfamiliar.

I'm an electrical contractor in Florida who is delving more into generators and have my first 400 amp transfer switch install for a 22kw generator (The customer decided to purchase everything prior to calling me out). I always like to get into new things and also am always willing to help people out. I am supplying pictures to see if what I am thinking of doing is doable.

There is an existing Meter/Main with 2 separate breakers to the inside of the home (1 is 125 amps, the other is 200 amps)
IMG_1259-26f98afe-1920w.jpg
Stock picture of the Meter Cabinet

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Real Picture of how the original service is

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Home this will be installed at

My plan is to mount the 400 amp ATS to the left of the entire cabinet. I am going to take the line side on the panel breakers off at the load side of the meter and bring them into the ATS. I then am going to bring new wires off of the load side of the meter into the ATS. This will maintain the 125 amp and 200 amp breakers feeding the panels inside as disconnects.

The main concern/question I have is : Can I install polaris connectors in the meter cabinet so as not to have to mess with the tight 90degree bends from the factory in the meter side of the cabinet that connect to the breakers.

I hope this makes sense and appreciate any input and/or suggestions on an alternate method.

Thanks!
Todd
 
I don't think you are going to be able to do what you want. The conductors from the meter to the breakers (load side of meter) are factory installed, and as such, a listed assembly. You would be violating the listing of the meter/main by doing this.
 
Short of scrapping the old service, and starting over, it would be more economical to install two transfer switches. What does the 125 run? Pool equipment? Since it’s Florida, you don’t have to worry about the pool equipment freezing, so I would just do one 200, and call it a day. If the power is off for any length of time, it would probably be due to a hurricane, so the pool probably will not get used a whole lot during that time.
 
Little Bill said:
I don't think you are going to be able to do what you want. The conductors from the meter to the breakers (load side of meter) are factory installed, and as such, a listed assembly. You would be violating the listing of the meter/main by doing this.
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I'm not sure on this one. If I removed the wires from the load side of the meter and used a polaris connector to extend them to the transfer switch and then came from the transfer switch back into the load side of where I removed those wires it's not really modifying the listing I wouldn't think. However if I removed those factory installed wires and re ran them not only would that be super difficult I could see how maybe that could come up as a violation (maybe). My real question is there anything against using those polaris connectors in the meter can side?

hillbilly1 said:
Short of scrapping the old service, and starting over, it would be more economical to install two transfer switches. What does the 125 run? Pool equipment? Since it’s Florida, you don’t have to worry about the pool equipment freezing, so I would just do one 200, and call it a day. If the power is off for any length of time, it would probably be due to a hurricane, so the pool probably will not get used a whole lot during that time.
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The 200 feeds the main part of the house and the 125 feeds a secondary panel on the second story.
 
Secondary thought.

Could I mount the ATS to the right of the equipment. Bring the 125 and 200 amp loads into the ATS on the load side and just feed the 400 amp off of the breakers onto the utility side of the ATS and then install main breakers in the inside panels.
The 400amp ATS acts as the service disconnect to the home. If the sub panel loads reach then I don't need any splicing....
 
Tell client to take it back and get what is needed or start all over with what they got, and end up buying additional 320 or 400 amp meter socket, and additional enclosures for the 125 and 200 amp breakers. Some good news, you can install existing breakers into enclosures that accept QBL type breakers.

If 2020 NEC applies you can no longer have 2-6 mains in same compartment anymore and would have to go single main or other arrangement that doesn't put them in same compartment anyway.
 
Daolin said:
Secondary thought.

Could I mount the ATS to the right of the equipment. Bring the 125 and 200 amp loads into the ATS on the load side and just feed the 400 amp off of the breakers onto the utility side of the ATS and then install main breakers in the inside panels.
The 400amp ATS acts as the service disconnect to the home. If the sub panel loads reach then I don't need any splicing....
Click to expand...
How are you going to feed the ATS? You can’t parallel the 200 and 125 amp feeds from the existing service. Feeding directly from the meter base would violate the listing.
 
Daolin said:
Secondary thought.

Could I mount the ATS to the right of the equipment. Bring the 125 and 200 amp loads into the ATS on the load side and just feed the 400 amp off of the breakers onto the utility side of the ATS and then install main breakers in the inside panels.
The 400amp ATS acts as the service disconnect to the home. If the sub panel loads reach then I don't need any splicing....
Click to expand...
Is your ATS service rated?

Is distance to panels short enough to meet feeder tap rules?

Little confused but think you trying to say meter output terminals>>>>400 amp ATS>>>> feeder tap to a 125 and 200 amp main breaker in existing panels, basically bypassing the existing 125 and 200 amp breakers in the process.
 
kwired said:
Is your ATS service rated?

Is distance to panels short enough to meet feeder tap rules?

Little confused but think you trying to say meter output terminals>>>>400 amp ATS>>>> feeder tap to a 125 and 200 amp main breaker in existing panels, basically bypassing the existing 125 and 200 amp breakers in the process.
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Thank you all for helping me think the process through.

The ATS is service rated 400 amp. The jurisdiction we are in is 2017 NEC.

The distance to the panels may or may not meet feeder tap rules I still have to gain access to the home to see.

I'm just curious on my original plan. If I'm allowed to use polaris taps on the meter side its a pretty simple install. I'll have to call the utility company and see what their thoughts are.
IMG_1261-34d2133e-1920w.jpg

(side note the font I used is for the old school gamers to try to identify :)
This will keep the breakers intact as disconnects and the wires sized correctly to the breakers and panels. Am I missing something?

Thank you again for all your help. Sometimes I get into things I probably shouldn't on the fly, but I'm a sucker for helping people out.
 
The only conductors, besides the factory installed conductors, allowed in the meter side are the SE conductors.
The only legal ways to use the genny on this install is to....
1). Feed the ATS off the load side of one of the breakers to only one of the panels
2). Get two ATS, feed one ATS from the 200A breaker and feed the other from the 125A breaker, then feed a panel from each ATS respectively.
3). Run desired circuits to be backed up from both panels into a single panel and feed it from the ATS, feed the ATS from the 200A breaker.
This would be the most costly and hard to do choice. IMO.
 
Can't really do this legally with a 400ats imo. Easiest and cheapest way is a 100a and a 200a non service rated transfer switch. I'd probably nipple out of the bottom right into a 4x4 or 6x6 gutter long enough to match the width of the 2 transfer switches. Polaris onto the 4/0 ser and extend that to your 200a ats load side, run 4/0s from those subfeed lugs to the utility side. Same deal with the 100a side, just smaller wire and ats. Added benefit of doing it this way is that it leaves the distribution section open for a future solar breaker install that won't be on the generator power side.
 
ppsh said:
Can't really do this legally with a 400ats imo. Easiest and cheapest way is a 100a and a 200a non service rated transfer switch. I'd probably nipple out of the bottom right into a 4x4 or 6x6 gutter long enough to match the width of the 2 transfer switches. Polaris onto the 4/0 ser and extend that to your 200a ats load side, run 4/0s from those subfeed lugs to the utility side. Same deal with the 100a side, just smaller wire and ats. Added benefit of doing it this way is that it leaves the distribution section open for a future solar breaker install that won't be on the generator power side.
Click to expand...
See post #3
 
Little Bill said:
The only conductors, besides the factory installed conductors, allowed in the meter side are the SE conductors.
The only legal ways to use the genny on this install is to....
1). Feed the ATS off the load side of one of the breakers to only one of the panels
2). Get two ATS, feed one ATS from the 200A breaker and feed the other from the 125A breaker, then feed a panel from each ATS respectively.
3). Run desired circuits to be backed up from both panels into a single panel and feed it from the ATS, feed the ATS from the 200A breaker.
This would be the most costly and hard to do choice. IMO.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the response. I was trying to figure a way to not do option 2 which is the most logical because we can't locate a 100 amp transfer switch :( He wants both panels, but I could see how long he wants to wait. I could also install the 200 and at least half of the home will work until we get the 100.

ppsh said:
Can't really do this legally with a 400ats imo. Easiest and cheapest way is a 100a and a 200a non service rated transfer switch. I'd probably nipple out of the bottom right into a 4x4 or 6x6 gutter long enough to match the width of the 2 transfer switches. Polaris onto the 4/0 ser and extend that to your 200a ats load side, run 4/0s from those subfeed lugs to the utility side. Same deal with the 100a side, just smaller wire and ats. Added benefit of doing it this way is that it leaves the distribution section open for a future solar breaker install that won't be on the generator power side.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the input, great suggestion. Believe it or not, I've never installed a gutter, but it does sound like that would be the way to go. I just don't like using any kind of metal on the exterior of a home in Florida. Most of our installs are near the beach but this one is more near a river so I'm sure we won't have issue.

Also thanks Hillbilly for offering up the options earlier.

Thanks again all for helping me out. The good thing is I never gave the customer a price I'm doing T&M.
 
Throw another problem into the plan. The existing meter-combo appears it might well be listed for "service only" as the neutral bar is permanently bonded to the enclosure.
Once you add your service rated ATS, the neutrals and equipment grounding would need to be separated downstream from the ATS,
 
augie47 said:
Throw another problem into the plan. The existing meter-combo appears it might well be listed for "service only" as the neutral bar is permanently bonded to the enclosure.
Once you add your service rated ATS, the neutrals and equipment grounding would need to be separated downstream from the ATS,
Click to expand...
Shouldn't that be "Separated at the ATS and downstream"?
 
Don't challenge my ole wore out brain :)
If the ATS is service rated and used as the service disconnect the two would be common to each other (which was what I pictured) , IF the ATS is supplied by a separate service disconnect then they should be seperated. Better ?? :)
 
augie47 said:
Don't challenge my ole wore out brain :)
If the ATS is service rated and used as the service disconnect the two would be common to each other (which was what I pictured) , IF the ATS is supplied by a separate service disconnect then they should be seperated. Better ?? :)
Click to expand...
Well my 3/4 wore out brain says since the OP has a meter/main, then the meter/main IS the service disconnect and anything past that has to have the neutrals & EGCs separated.

Now I'm braced for my correction!:cautious:
 
You are correct... I was simply pointing out that it did not appear that he could use the existing meter combo panel on the load side of a service rated ATS since it has a permanently bonded neutral.
My typing resembles my speech (as you know 1st hand),., sometimes neither come out correctly.
 
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