400 amp Service Rated Generac Transfer Switch

[Little Bill]

You are correct... I was simply pointing out that it did not appear that he could use the existing meter combo panel on the load side of a service rated ATS since it has a permanently bonded neutral.
My typing resembles my speech (as you know 1st hand),., sometimes neither come out correctly.

For some reason the use of meter/mains with an ATS (both on the Forum and my experience) has come up a lot lately and I've not found a way to use the ATS for the service disconnect. Luckily, most of the ones I've done were new installs and I could plan accordingly.

 

[augie47]

When I inspected, retrofit ATS systems and swimming pools had a 50-50 chance of a reject.

 

[Daolin]

Yes sir, Ill be removing the neutrals from the load center side and sending them into the ATS and separating them inside the ATS then sending them back through the cabinet to infinity and beyond.

 

[kwired]

The only conductors, besides the factory installed conductors, allowed in the meter side are the SE conductors.
The only legal ways to use the genny on this install is to....
1). Feed the ATS off the load side of one of the breakers to only one of the panels
2). Get two ATS, feed one ATS from the 200A breaker and feed the other from the 125A breaker, then feed a panel from each ATS respectively.
3). Run desired circuits to be backed up from both panels into a single panel and feed it from the ATS, feed the ATS from the 200A breaker.
This would be the most costly and hard to do choice. IMO.

Not so sure about that. POCO maybe won't allow it in some cases but I can't think of any NEC restriction here. You would need separate raceways to the transfer switch for service and non service conductors though.

worst case one maybe could put the ATS to the left and then run a raceway or gutter in some way to get load side conductors to the right side with the breakers in it.

 

[augie47]

In the end, I think it will be a local jurisdiction call. A lot of "alteration" going on and, as kwored noted, you would need separate raceways. Being existing , an inspector might allow your plan.

 

[kwired]

Well my 3/4 wore out brain says since the OP has a meter/main, then the meter/main IS the service disconnect and anything past that has to have the neutrals & EGCs separated.

Now I'm braced for my correction!

Since the meter main has service conductors in it it also needs bonded to the grounded conductor.

I'm not saying there is a definite code violation here, but from theory perspective as well as simpler code aspects this might not be wrong. It won't result in anything much different than what occurs with a separate meter socket with metal raceway to the service disconnect(s).

Some cry that you violate the listing if you make such modification. IDK if that is truly such a thing or if it is a little more of a reach for something to disapprove it with. Lots of listed items get field modification of some sort when is it ok to pick and choose which mods are a violation and which are not? If there was a bus bar instead of insulated NEC type conductors between the meter and panelboard section maybe listing is more reasonable to cite? IDK. The mains that are installed are stand alone products that are used in many different types of applications from single breaker enclosures to main breakers in panelboards, switchboard possibly use the same breakers to OEM or industrial control panel applications. Some those applications where field assembled you have to remove lug and replace with a bus link of some sort but it is the same breaker. Same series even has I line bus plug option but that is a factory installed option and is just different sequence of characters to designate that in the catalog number, everything else about it is the same.

 

[hillbilly1]

Since the meter main has service conductors in it it also needs bonded to the grounded conductor.

I'm not saying there is a definite code violation here, but from theory perspective as well as simpler code aspects this might not be wrong. It won't result in anything much different than what occurs with a separate meter socket with metal raceway to the service disconnect(s).

Some cry that you violate the listing if you make such modification. IDK if that is truly such a thing or if it is a little more of a reach for something to disapprove it with. Lots of listed items get field modification of some sort when is it ok to pick and choose which mods are a violation and which are not? If there was a bus bar instead of insulated NEC type conductors between the meter and panelboard section maybe listing is more reasonable to cite? IDK. The mains that are installed are stand alone products that are used in many different types of applications from single breaker enclosures to main breakers in panelboards, switchboard possibly use the same breakers to OEM or industrial control panel applications. Some those applications where field assembled you have to remove lug and replace with a bus link of some sort but it is the same breaker. Same series even has I line bus plug option but that is a factory installed option and is just different sequence of characters to designate that in the catalog number, everything else about it is the same.

Usually it’s the AHJ that has the problem with violating the listing, and since he/she has the final word, that tends to be the issue. Electrically, it would work fine. It’s just the CYA you have to do anymore.

 

[kwired]

Usually it’s the AHJ that has the problem with violating the listing, and since he/she has the final word, that tends to be the issue. Electrically, it would work fine. It’s just the CYA you have to do anymore.

I don't like it when you modify something and they say it violates the listing. What modifications can be made and can not be made unless the instructions specifically state so?

Making entries into a cabinet where there isn't a pre-made location or enlarging an existing location is one the most common modifications and they let you do most anything there, though there might be some locations that aren't the best place to do so.

Making modifications to a bus bar I can maybe understand, this meter - main has art 310 style conductors between the meter and main and conventional termination lugs. Sort of pushing the listing violation card a bit to claim that here, unless there are instructions that specifically prohibit it. JMO.