400 amp service w/no main.

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romeo

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I just inspected a 400 amp service on a modular building for the elderly. I was surprised and angry to find a 400amp 40circuit panel with no main breaker. The main panel was installed and supplied by the EC. The building has three sub-panels,each has a 150amp main breaker,supplied and installed by the factory. The 400amp panel has six circuit breakers. (Making it code compliant.) There are two breakers feeding a/c units,one feeding the well pump and three 100 amp breakers feeding the three sub-panel that have 150amp main breakers. All the feeds were installed by the EC.

I asked the EC why he was feeding 150amp factory installed panels with 100amps, he said that the manufacture typically installed all panels with 150 amp mains and the load did not exceed 100 amps. I told him how unhappy I was about not having a main breaker for the service, and told him how poor the design was, because the main panel was filled to capacity. He told me it was a matter of money.

I am thinking that the breakers for the well and a/c units could be relocated to sub panels, leaving space for additional future breakers and not exceeding the six breaker rule.

Avice please.
 
Advice please.
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My feeling is that it is not the inspectors job to tell the EC that you don't like his chosen means of wiring. If it is code compliant then you must pass it. I am not saying I agree or diagree with the installation but it is not your job to offer how you would like to see it done.

I understand your concern but you should only be involved with code issues not compliant installations.
 
romeo said:
... how poor the design was
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The installation is NEC compliant. The NEC is not a design manual and in fact it promises that the installation may not be desirable, 90.1(B).
 
Romeo respectfully I feel your only words should be pass or fail based on NEC code sections.

What you like or dislike has absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
Ditto what Bob, Jim and Dennis said. The three words I never want to hear from an inspector are " I would like.....".
 
infinity said:
The three words I never want to hear from an inspector are " I would like.....".
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Or "in my town...":wink:

And I agree with the others. I only inspect for code compliance.
 
You state that the main panel has no main breaker. No main panel ever has to have a main breaker. What the NEC requires a main panel to have is a disconnecting means. Your panel does have a disconnecting means. The disconnecting means consists of six breakers. Therefore, this is NEC compliant.
 
400 amp service w/o main

400 amp service w/o main

Dennis Alwon said:
My feeling is that it is not the inspectors job to tell the EC that you don't like his chosen means of wiring. If it is code compliant then you must pass it. I am not saying I agree or disagree with the installation but it is not your job to offer how you would like to see it done.

I understand your concern but you should only be involved with code issues not compliant installations.
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I agree with all of you that responded. The reason I dislike the installation, is that it is in the town I live in and this building has been a long time coming. the real blame is on the building committee members, that accepted the bid without seeking advice.

I know very well that I must pass the installation. Thank you.
 
Everything I inspect is in the town I live in and just because I don't like it doesn't mean I don't have to pass it, but it will be right.

Ours is a growing city and I have been involved in every major building that has been put up in the last 18 years. I sleep just fine at night.

As I tell contractors, you come flying into town and slap it up and then head back to where ever it is you came from, while my friends and family are going to be going into these buildings. Trust me they are going to be safe.
 
I'm confused , blame for what exactly. Is there some hidden danger that code cycle after code cycle has missed???
 
And ,in the state I live these public projects are very public right from the get go.
 
romeo said:
I asked the EC why he was feeding 150amp factory installed panels with 100amps, he said that the manufacture typically installed all panels with 150 amp mains and the load did not exceed 100 amps. I told him how unhappy I was about not having a main breaker for the service, and told him how poor the design was, because the main panel was filled to capacity. He told me it was a matter of money.

Avice please.
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The fact that there is a breaker in the panel rated at 150amp Just makes it a point to disconnect that one panel. If the load is calculated at less then 100 amp why should it make a differance ?
 
Romeo
Have the power company get you the fault current of the transformer that is going to feed the main service.If the IR is higher(110.9)he will have to provide breakers with the higher rating or provide main overcurrent protection with higher IR rating.
 
romeo said:
I just inspected a 400 amp service on a modular building for the elderly. I was surprised and angry to find a 400amp 40circuit panel with no main breaker. The 400amp panel has six circuit breakers. (Making it code compliant.)

I told him how unhappy I was about not having a main breaker for the service, and told him how poor the design was, because the main panel was filled to capacity. He told me it was a matter of money.


Avice please.
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As an inspector why would you become "angry" and "unhappy" with this "code compliant" (to use your own words) installation. You are NOT the designer. If I were the EC I would be angry and unhappy with you. Maybe you should only be concerned with the code not the designs
 
400 amp service w/no main.

Inspect said:
Romeo
Have the power company get you the fault current of the transformer that is going to feed the main service.If the IR is higher(110.9)he will have to provide breakers with the higher rating or provide main overcurrent protection with higher IR rating.
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Thank you for your response. That is what I am doing now, I expect to hear from the power company Eng. tomorrow.The breakers have 10,000 AIC rating,if the available fault current does not exceed 10,000 the service will pass.

Just to let everyone know, I am not a this is my town kind of inspector, if I am not able to provide a code section that has been violated I will pass the job.

Now I am going to give everyone a Chance to blast me again. Does anyone agree that someone down the road will install a seventh breaker in that 42 circuit panel? I know I need to inspect by code and stop all this thinking, and that is just what I do.
 
romeo said:
I told him ... how poor the design was... He told me it was a matter of money.
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The EC isn't arguing with you - he agrees with you; it's a Code compliant poor design, with the design based on what can be achieved with limited funding. I think they call that "value engineering".
 
Romeo-- I am fully understanding of the problem you face. A 40 circuit panel with 6 DP breakers is ridiculous. Around here we use to install a lot of those 12cir panels and have 6 DP as the discos-- 12 spaces, but they were only 200 amp.
Then I would go to a job that had the same installation and find 5 DP and 2 SP installed in the panel. Apparently the electric range was taken out and converted to gas and they added a microwave.

There is no cure for what might happen. I do feel your unhappiness. Perhaps the EC would be kind enough to write on the panel that no more breakers may legally be installed in this panel, or something like that.
 
MLO Service Panels

MLO Service Panels

I have been in this game a LONGGGGGGG time and have always thought MLO service panels were "weak links" and a major oversight by CMPs, however, I must admot I have not actually witnesses a "meltdown" in thes e many yeasrs of inspecting. Some fellows from areas with heaver loads might.

Has anyone actually experienced a problem with this ?
 
romeo said:
Now I am going to give everyone a Chance to blast me again. Does anyone agree that someone down the road will install a seventh breaker in that 42 circuit panel? I know I need to inspect by code and stop all this thinking, and that is just what I do.
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I can't seem to follow what you're writing. Originally, you complained that the 400A panel was full with the 6 breakers installed. Now, you're mentioning a 42 slot panel and the potential for going over the 6 handle rule. Is this the 400A panel or one of those 150A subpanels??? I wouldn't like a MLO main panel to have more than 12 slots, but I don't think I could fail it on a possible future non compliance.

I see nothing wrong with the original design. If more ampacity is needed in a panel, then change the 100A breakers to 125's or 150's (and pull new wire if it wasn't oversized). Whether you move an air conditioner, or increase the 100A feeders to something larger, you still have the possibility of overloading the service. But an electrician should know how to do a load calculation, and actually do one if there is no single main.
 
What If?

"Down the road' A jack leg handyman or such comes in and in the course of a repair removes the egc. from a metal framed machine or puts two white wires under the same screw or removes a 20 amp breaker and puts the 12 awg under the lugs of a 50 amp breaker cause that all he had on the truck or trunk of his/her car or what if a midget came riding in on an elephant and ....
Please!
That is why inspectors or fire marshalls need to do or be allowed to do follow up inspections of all systems and If violations are found gig the owner and shut power down if not corrected in timely manner. I live in an area where in restaurants supply exit signs on drop cords mounted to the wall with tape. Where you can stand on someones new deck and touch the service tap. can I come down now?

liscense (inside joke)
 
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