400 amp service w/no main.

[Dennis Alwon]

I can't seem to follow what you're writing.

The op stated this

I was surprised and angry to find a 400amp 40circuit panel with no main breaker.

 

[M. D.]

He then said it was filled to capacity, which I take to mean that it is incompliance but should one add another breaker it will be in violation

 

[romeo]

400 amp service w/no main.

He then said it was filled to capacity, which I take to mean that it is incompliance but should one add another breaker it will be in violation

That is correct. Why install a 42 circuit panel when only 12 spaces can be used? I know that the NEC does not take what if in to consideration,but what if?

 

[dnem]

Thank you for your response. That is what I am doing now, I expect to hear from the power company Eng. tomorrow.The breakers have 10,000 AIC rating,if the available fault current does not exceed 10,000 the service will pass.

Just to let everyone know, I am not a this is my town kind of inspector, if I am not able to provide a code section that has been violated I will pass the job.

Now I am going to give everyone a Chance to blast me again. Does anyone agree that someone down the road will install a seventh breaker in that 42 circuit panel? I know I need to inspect by code and stop all this thinking, and that is just what I do.

We've discussed the subject of main panels that have capability of more than 6 disconnects before. . It's a subject that had alot of debate and ended without anyone being able to understand the direction given in the UL Whitebook. . The installation has to not only be code compliant but also according to manufacturers specs which includes the requirements of their listing. . Sometimes it's hard to determine if the installation is compliant with the listing but in the case of a 42 slot panel, I believe it's obvious that the panel is not listed to be used as a main.

See the UL Whitebook Panelboard Marking Guide in the back of the Whitebook. . If you're looking at the 2006 edition, page 9 of the Panelboard Marking section, item20A reads, "There must be at least one combination of switching units that can be mounted to occupy all available space for switching units; and, whether by using handle ties or similar devices, not more than six main disconnects will result (including factory installed disconnects)."

How this "combination of switching units that can be mounted" would apply to a 12 slot panel is unclear, but the 42 slot MLO panel is obviously not being used according to the manufacturers UL listing instructions when used as a main.

According to the information you've given so far, this is not a code compliant installation. . The violation is 110.3(B), "Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling."

David

 

[M. D.]

So David in your opinion ,...this 400 amp 40 circuit panel cannot be marked;
“Suitable for use as service equipment when not more than six

main disconnecting means are provided”???

I can't think of any combination of 6 handels that would fill such panel.

 

[jim dungar]

How this "combination of switching units that can be mounted" would apply to a 12 slot panel is unclear, but the 42 slot MLO panel is obviously not being used according to the manufacturers UL listing instructions when used as a main.

According to the information you've given so far, this is not a code compliant installation. . The violation is 110.3(B), "Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling."

How do you know this?

The "combination of switching units" is some thing the manufacturer supplies when the panel is tested by UL. There is nothing that says that combination must be used in the actual application.

If the panel has a UL Listing that allows it it be used as a service entrance when not more than six disconnects are provided, then it is compliant.

 

[petersonra]

What If?

"Down the road' A jack leg handyman or such comes in and in the course of a repair removes the egc. from a metal framed machine or puts two white wires under the same screw or removes a 20 amp breaker and puts the 12 awg under the lugs of a 50 amp breaker cause that all he had on the truck or trunk of his/her car or what if a midget came riding in on an elephant and ....
Please!

What if a "real" electrician does the same thing? Does that make it somehow better?

That is why inspectors or fire marshalls need to do or be allowed to do follow up inspections of all systems and If violations are found gig the owner and shut power down if not corrected in timely manner. I live in an area where in restaurants supply exit signs on drop cords mounted to the wall with tape. Where you can stand on someones new deck and touch the service tap. can I come down now?

liscense (inside joke)

Ever hear of the bill or rights? This is America. we don't allow government agents to search us or our property just because we might be doing something wrong.

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

What if a "real" electrician does the same thing? Does that make it somehow better?



Ever hear of the bill or rights? This is America. we don't allow government agents to search us or our property just because we might be doing something wrong.

I agree, and they can violate my 43rd circuit when they pry the "non-ctl use" piggyback breaker out of my cold, dead, 40-ckt 200a Murray panel!

 

[M. D.]

I agree, and they can violate my 43rd circuit when they pry the "non-ctl use" piggyback breaker out of my cold, dead, 40-ckt 200a Murray panel!

Thanks for the laugh!!

 

[tadavidson]

Ever hear of the bill or rights? This is America. we don't allow government agents to search us or our property just because we might be doing something wrong.

I will not get into politics deeply with you but... Fire Marshals (in Georgia) and Code Emforcement Officers have the Authority (not right) to inspect any public place that the citizens occupy or do business. In Georgia the Law Enforcement Agencies have the Authority (not right) to stop you in your vehicle and check that you are in compliance with Laws regarding licensing and insurance.

And further more a "real electrician" wouldn't. Any one who has may need to do some self evaluation.

He never said it would be easy. He only said do it..

 

[LarryFine]

See the UL Whitebook Panelboard Marking Guide in the back of the Whitebook. . If you're looking at the 2006 edition, page 9 of the Panelboard Marking section, item20A reads, "There must be at least one combination of switching units that can be mounted to occupy all available space for switching units; and, whether by using handle ties or similar devices, not more than six main disconnects will result (including factory installed disconnects)."

How this "combination of switching units that can be mounted" would apply to a 12 slot panel is unclear, but the 42 slot MLO panel is obviously not being used according to the manufacturers UL listing instructions when used as a main.

An 18-space panel is the largest that could meet this description, with six 3-pole breakers. A 12-space would be maxed with six 2-pole breakers.

According to the information you've given so far, this is not a code compliant installation. . The violation is 110.3(B), "Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling."

If the "suitable for use as service equipment when . . . " is on the label, it's compliant. From what you're saying, an 18-space ML panel is the largest UL should allow to have such a label.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

And what good would any of it do. I can pass with 2 DP breakers in a 12 circuit panel and anything can happen after I am gone. 2Dp and 8 SP. I also agree it's not just the handy man that does this---licensed electricians are not saints. In fact I bet every one of us has done something that wasn't up to snuff.

I must confess one time I put a staple in that was 13 inches from the box and I knew it. There is no hope for me.

 

[M. D.]

Romeo , is the panel in question marked
?Suitable for use as service equipment when not more than six main disconnecting means are provided???? or not? Just curious

 

[dnem]

See the UL Whitebook Panelboard Marking Guide in the back of the Whitebook. . If you're looking at the 2006 edition, page 9 of the Panelboard Marking section, item20A reads, "There must be at least one combination of switching units that can be mounted to occupy all available space for switching units; and, whether by using handle ties or similar devices, not more than six main disconnects will result (including factory installed disconnects)."

How this "combination of switching units that can be mounted" would apply to a 12 slot panel is unclear, but the 42 slot MLO panel is obviously not being used according to the manufacturers UL listing instructions when used as a main.

An 18-space panel is the largest that could meet this description, with six 3-pole breakers. A 12-space would be maxed with six 2-pole breakers.

According to the information you've given so far, this is not a code compliant installation. . The violation is 110.3(B), "Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling."

If the "suitable for use as service equipment when . . . " is on the label, it's compliant. From what you're saying, an 18-space ML panel is the largest UL should allow to have such a label.

That?s exactly true !

I actually didn?t phrase it exactly right because I said,
?How this "combination of switching units that can be mounted" would apply to a 12 slot panel is unclear?
which isn?t exactly true. . It would be a panel larger than 12 slot that would become an issue.

42 slot MLO 3 phase panel is a violation when used as a main
40 slot MLO single phase panel is a violation when used as a main

18 slot MLO 3 phase panel is OK for service disconnect
12 slot MLO single phase is OK for service disconnect

The question is about the panels that are just a couple slots over those limits.
Is there a "combination of switching units that can be mounted to occupy all available space for switching units" if there?s a 19th slot ?

So David in your opinion ,...this 400 amp 40 circuit panel cannot be marked;
?Suitable for use as service equipment when not more than six

main disconnecting means are provided????

I can't think of any combination of 6 handels that would fill such panel.

If the manufacturer put that sticker on a 40 slot MLO, it would be a violation of the listing.
Manufacturers can make mistakes just like the rest of us. . 110.3(B) applies to everybody including the factory workers making the panels.

David

 

[jaylectricity]

What If?


That is why inspectors or fire marshalls need to do or be allowed to do follow up inspections of all systems and If violations are found gig the owner and shut power down if not corrected in timely manner. I live in an area where in restaurants supply exit signs on drop cords mounted to the wall with tape. Where you can stand on someones new deck and touch the service tap. can I come down now?

liscense (inside joke)

What if a "real" electrician does the same thing? Does that make it somehow better?



Ever hear of the bill or rights? This is America. we don't allow government agents to search us or our property just because we might be doing something wrong.

Thank you petersonra because I was just about to respond to that but then I decided to read on. I will NEVER feel comfortable with surprise inspections. Now some may say that if you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about. But...we are constantly changing the rules as to what is wrong or right whether everyone agrees or not.

Short anecdote: A multi-million dollar house was built in '91. Sometime since they started making 12-2 with a yellow jacket, somebody built a night club in the basement. Full blown with dancing, strippers, gambling and even a secret room for (speculation) drug deals. All done with no permit.
I am not advocating this, it's just for informational purposes.
A pipe burst this winter and flooded the basement out. Some govt officials (I think it might have started with Fire Marshalls) got into the basement and blew the whole thing. The town came down hard and ordered all of the non-permitted work to be ripped out. Without going into how extensive the work is I will move along to my part.
I ripped out a lot of wiring and what put me in awe was the fact that this "non-permitted" work was done in a much more code compliant and neat and workmanlike manner than the original "permitted" work. Green ground screws, upsized subpanel feeders, etc... The "approved" work consisted of PVC into 4" square boxes with no support, 20 amp OC's protecting 14 wire, etc.

OK, sorry...had to get that off my chest. Point was that inspectors aren't the end all be all to what is right and what is wrong.

 

[jim dungar]

If the manufacturer put that sticker on a 40 slot MLO, it would be a violation of the listing.
Manufacturers can make mistakes just like the rest of us. . 110.3(B) applies to everybody including the factory workers making the panels.

First, the NEC does not apply to the manufacturing of a panelboard.

Second, how do you know that the manufacturer did not submit "some" combination of breakers and handle ties that provides for only 6 operations of the hand?

While I don't think it is a good design to for this 40 circuit MLO panel application, I cannot call it a 110.3(B) code violation if I see the UL listing allows it.

 

[iwire]

David, Larry. I would say that 18 is not the limit.

Some shunt trip breakers use 4 spaces, that brings us to 24 spaces needed to reach six disconnects.

 

[LarryFine]

David, Larry. I would say that 18 is not the limit.

Some shunt trip breakers use 4 spaces, that brings us to 24 spaces needed to reach six disconnects.

Please do not confuse the issue with facts!

 

[iwire]

Please do not confuse the issue with facts!

LOL

Your right, it's confused enough. :grin:


This subject is always a hot one and I never understand why.

The rule is six disconnects, we can not stop people from breaking the code if they are of a mind to.

There are many simple ways to add another disconnect to a service, any of us with time in the field has seen it numerous times.

 

[M. D.]

Are there panels with say,.. 30 spaces that are marked

?Suitable for use as service equipment when not more than six main disconnecting means are provided? ?

Bob, if my memory serves me I think you once posted a picture of one such panel?