404.2(c)

[pete m.]

As written I'm not sure that the teeth of the new 404.2(C) are as sharp as they first seem...

(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads. Where switches
control lighting loads supplied by a grounded general purpose
branch circuit, the grounded circuit conductor for the controlled
lighting circuit shall be provided at the switch location.

Exception: The grounded circuit conductor shall be permitted
to be omitted from the switch enclosure where either
of the following conditions in (1) or (2) apply:
(1) Conductors for switches controlling lighting loads enter
the box through a raceway. The raceway shall have
suffıcient cross-sectional area to accommodate the extension
of the grounded circuit conductor of the lighting
circuit to the switch location whether or not the
conductors in the raceway are required to be increased
in size to comply with 310.15(B)(3)(a).
(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.

With the allowances of exception 2 it would seem that initial installation of a grounded conductor would not be necessary in a majority of construction.

Pete

 

[Dennis Alwon]

One could argue whether the framing is open at the top and bottom. IMO, if you have to drill then it is not open. Not sure if that was the intent but to me it would be ridiculous to make the rule and allow that install.

 

[pete m.]

One could argue whether the framing is open at the top and bottom. IMO, if you have to drill then it is not open. Not sure if that was the intent but to me it would be ridiculous to make the rule and allow that install.

I agree, but I'm keying in on this phrase of exception 2:

"or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side."

A lot of residential construction (at least around here) has an unfinished basement at the time of final inspection and then the attic space is typically unfinished.

Pete

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Pete it says has framing that is open at the top and bottom on the same floor level

 

[pete m.]

Pete it says has framing that is open at the top and bottom on the same floor level

and it also says after "on the same floor level"....

orthrough a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.

Not trying to shout at you just pointing out the second option or have I missed something?

Pete

 

[resistance]

orthrough a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.

With the allowances of exception 2 it would seem that initial installation of a grounded conductor would not be necessary in a majority of construction.

I wouldn't say this is a majority of construction. At most you get a garage or basement--in reference to residential. If the structure was unfinished on one side, or open at the top or bottom of any one floor, and we use your logic that a "majority of construction" would qualify. We can then assume building code has no role in the construction of a structure.

 

[pete m.]

I wouldn't say this is a majority of construction. At most you get a garage or basement--in reference to residential. If the structure was unfinished on one side, or open at the top or bottom of any one floor, and we use your logic that a "majority of construction" would qualify. We can then assume building code has no role in the construction of a structure.

"Majority of construction" may be a bit too strong but there a lot of unfinished attic spaces and basements as well as partition walls in commercial buildings that are open at the top (drywall stops just above the suspended ceiling and metal framing continues which the building codes do allow under certain circumstances).

I was not trying to imply that building codes don't matter or that the verbiage in the NEC will negate the requirement altogether.

Pete

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is what you wrote

"or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side."

A lot of residential construction (at least around here) has an unfinished basement at the time of final inspection and then the attic space is typically unfinished.

Pete

It sounded like you were thinking if there is access from the attic or the basement then you don't need the neutral. I don't think that is true.

and it also says after "on the same floor level"....

orthrough a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.

Not trying to shout at you just pointing out the second option or have I missed something?

Pete

I agree if one side of the wall is unfinished then you don't need a neutral. But that is not the majority of homes.

 

[SAC]

I live in a two-story colonial, and it almost covers all of my rooms. My attic and basement are unfinished, so the first floor rooms have a framing cavity with a floor that is "unfinished on one side" (the basement side of the floor), and the second floor rooms have a framing cavity with a ceiling that is "unfinished on one side" (the attic side of the ceiling). In this area, I think this type of construction is pretty typical, and would seem to pretty much exempt all rooms when the basement and attic are unfinished.

 

[shepelec]

Sounds like 14-4 for three ways.

More money to the manufacturers.

 

[jusme123]

"Majority of construction" may be a bit too strong but there a lot of unfinished attic spaces and basements as well as partition walls in commercial buildings that are open at the top (drywall stops just above the suspended ceiling and metal framing continues which the building codes do allow under certain circumstances).

I was not trying to imply that building codes don't matter or that the verbiage in the NEC will negate the requirement altogether.

Pete

I think the exception was meant for the bold print above as you had stated. I do not agree with what you mentioned in a residential setting, because its not on same floor

 

[SAC]

I live in a two-story colonial, and it almost covers all of my rooms. My attic and basement are unfinished, so the first floor rooms have a framing cavity with a floor that is "unfinished on one side" (the basement side of the floor), and the second floor rooms have a framing cavity with a ceiling that is "unfinished on one side" (the attic side of the ceiling). In this area, I think this type of construction is pretty typical, and would seem to pretty much exempt all rooms when the basement and attic are unfinished.

I now disagree with my previous post. I read it like:


(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting loads enter the box

a) through a framing cavity that is open at the top or bottom on the same floor level,
or
b) through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on one side.


I was thinking that the "unfinished on one side" was describing another case aspect of the framing cavity, but I now believe it is describing how the cables enter the box.

 

[jwelectric]

I agree, but I'm keying in on this phrase of exception 2:

"or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side."

A lot of residential construction (at least around here) has an unfinished basement at the time of final inspection and then the attic space is typically unfinished.

Pete

This section is saying ?open on one side? or ?open at the top or bottom?.

Just because the basement is unpainted does not mean that the bottom is open. There would be the subflooring and bottom plate that would have it closed and the same would be true for the top plate in the attic.

(2) Cable assemblies for switches controlling lighting
loads enter the box through a framing cavity that is
open at the top or bottom on the same floor level, or
through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.

Notice that is states, or through a wall, floor, or ceiling that is unfinished on
one side.
Yes one can come from the basement or crawlspace or attic as long as one ?side? of the wall is open. It clearly makes the difference between top, bottom and side.

Using your definition of unfinished a switch that was supplied by AC cable inside the void of a block wall in an unfinished basement would not be required to have a neutral as outlined by this section simply because the basement is unfinished although there would be no access to the switch after the wall was built.

Unfinished simply means- not finished, not brought to an end or to the desired final state. At the time the CO is issued for a house or any other building the crawlspace, basement and attic are finished. They have been brought to their final desired state even if all our eyes can see is insulation.