404.4 "within wet locations" for switches in bathroom

[sfav8r]

404.4 to some is "crystal clear" and for others, not so much. I wish the committee would just say "the switch can be installed anywhere outside an imaginary line running from the front surface of the tub to the ceiling." Some inspectors say you shouldn't be able to reach the switch from the tub which is almost impossible in some bathrooms. The problem is in the 404.4 definition of "wet location." You could argue that anywhere in or around the tub is a "wet location." I have shown the diagram in Mike Holts book to inspectors and they don't care. I should say that most inspectors just say it has to be outside the tub, but some are adamant that anywhere near the tub is a "wet location."

 

[infinity]

404.4 to some is "crystal clear" and for others, not so much. I wish the committee would just say "the switch can be installed anywhere outside an imaginary line running from the front surface of the tub to the ceiling." Some inspectors say you shouldn't be able to reach the switch from the tub which is almost impossible in some bathrooms. The problem is in the 404.4 definition of "wet location." You could argue that anywhere in or around the tub is a "wet location." I have shown the diagram in Mike Holts book to inspectors and they don't care. I should say that most inspectors just say it has to be outside the tub, but some are adamant that anywhere near the tub is a "wet location."

I guess that they don't read as well as the rest of us. Are they familiar with the definition of Location, Wet in Article 100?

 

[stickboy1375]

just going to post the pic so everyone can see.... but yeah, the NEC is crystal clear on this....

 

[sfav8r]

I guess that they don't read as well as the rest of us. Are they familiar with the definition of Location, Wet in Article 100?

I'm with you a 100%. I actually copied that and brought it with me to an inspection where I knew this would be a problem. The inspectors response was "you don't think that if someone leaves that shower curtain open accidently the switch will get sprayed with water?" I suppose he has a point, but to me if you're going to use that kind of logic, you should assume that someone washing the dishes with a pull-out sprayer will spray the entire back splash and therefore no switches should be allowed within 5' of the sink. Each AHJ gets to make that call if the head Inspector allows it. Unfortunately the Head guy here allows that kind of discretion.

 

[stickboy1375]

I'm with you a 100%. I actually copied that and brought it with me to an inspection where I knew this would be a problem. The inspectors response was "you don't think that if someone leaves that shower curtain open accidently the switch will get sprayed with water?" I suppose he has a point, but to me if you're going to use that kind of logic, you should assume that someone washing the dishes with a pull-out sprayer will spray the entire back splash and therefore no switches should be allowed within 5' of the sink. Each AHJ gets to make that call if the head Inspector allows it. Unfortunately the Head guy here allows that kind of discretion.

If they leave the shower curtain open they are going to end up with mold and rot, which will kill them way before the switch getting wet will....

 

[infinity]

I'm with you a 100%. I actually copied that and brought it with me to an inspection where I knew this would be a problem. The inspectors response was "you don't think that if someone leaves that shower curtain open accidently the switch will get sprayed with water?" I suppose he has a point, but to me if you're going to use that kind of logic, you should assume that someone washing the dishes with a pull-out sprayer will spray the entire back splash and therefore no switches should be allowed within 5' of the sink. Each AHJ gets to make that call if the head Inspector allows it. Unfortunately the Head guy here allows that kind of discretion.

As Stick said the code is very clear. You could attach a "what-if's" to many installations but this one is not supported by the NEC. An inspector told my friend that he need a GFCI next to an attic AC unit because someone working there might be sweaty. Sounds logical but that's not what it says in the code book.

 

[stickboy1375]

As Stick said the code is very clear. You could attach a "what-if's" to many installations but this one is not supported by the NEC. An inspector told my friend that he need a GFCI next to an attic AC unit because someone working there might be sweaty. Sounds logical but that's not what it says in the code book.

I've heard that one before as well, along with many other great "what if's".... The town I work in now, they GFCI protect every shower recess light, I asked if they actually came across one that required this, and they just replied with, thats what the inspector wants, I so hate this logic... It undermines every installation.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I'm with you a 100%. I actually copied that and brought it with me to an inspection where I knew this would be a problem. The inspectors response was "you don't think that if someone leaves that shower curtain open accidently the switch will get sprayed with water?" I suppose he has a point, but to me if you're going to use that kind of logic, you should assume that someone washing the dishes with a pull-out sprayer will spray the entire back splash and therefore no switches should be allowed within 5' of the sink. Each AHJ gets to make that call if the head Inspector allows it. Unfortunately the Head guy here allows that kind of discretion.

What if you are sitting on the WC (water closet)? Safe for women? Men? See how he answers that! Bet it is safe for him! :lol: :lol:

 

[sfav8r]

just going to post the pic so everyone can see.... but yeah, the NEC is crystal clear on this....

That's the exact photo I showed the inspector!

 

[stickboy1375]

That's the exact photo I showed the inspector!

I feel your pain, some people just don't get it, i feel like carrying a brick with me, just in case there is no wall around.

 

[jxofaltrds]

That's the exact photo I showed the inspector!

Since he cares not about Mr. Holt or any other persons 'opinion' ask him if IAEI would be a source he would accept.

"Switches are not permitted to be installed within tubs or shower spaces unless installed as part of a listed tub or shower assembly. The tub or shower space is not defined in the NEC. This space is typically defined by the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) as the signature of the tub or shower. This space might be defined as the entire space from the adjoining cabinet to the wall where the tub or shower is installed. NEC 410.10(D) defines a ?900 mm (3 ft) horizontal by 2.5 m (8 ft) vertical zone? around a tub or shower, but this ?zone? applies to luminaires, ceiling fans, etc., not switches. General use snap switches can be installed right next to the tub or shower space, but not within the tub or shower space [see NEC 404.4(C)].

Switches, luminaires, and other electrical equipment associated with or installed around hydromassage bathtubs are treated the same as regular bathtubs in regard to their installation requirements [see NEC 680.71]."

http://www.iaei.org/magazine/2012/05/general-use-snap-switches/

So he CAN define it as he sees fit. I would not have a problem if he asked for GFCI protection also.

 

[elohr46]

just going to post the pic so everyone can see.... but yeah, the NEC is crystal clear on this....

Even though that is perfectly compliant I wonder how many of us in the business would actually make that install in our own homes?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Even though that is perfectly compliant I wonder how many of us in the business would actually make that install in our own homes?

I would have no trouble with this install. If a window is open and a recep. is on an adjacent wall it can get wet-- so what. Splashing at the sink may get a recep. by the sink wet--I really don't see the issue.

 

[kwired]

You could install one of these, but it still has to be outside the tub or shower space.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Maybe by the 2017 code the whole house will be AFCI, GFCI, TP, WP, LED,LOTO, USB, HDMI, SD, COD, .....
Asbestos free, Lead Free, Mold free,
Energy Free too. hmy:

Did I leave any acronym out!

 

[stickboy1375]

Even though that is perfectly compliant I wonder how many of us in the business would actually make that install in our own homes?

I do it all the time, what is the issue?

I bet you are going to love the picture below. Any issues?

 

[cowboyjwc]

Maybe by the 2017 code the whole house will be AFCI, GFCI, TP, WP, LED,LOTO, USB, HDMI, SD, COD, .....
Asbestos free, Lead Free, Mold free,
Energy Free too. hmy:

Did I leave any acronym out!

BS and LOL:happyyes:

 

[kwired]

Maybe by the 2017 code the whole house will be AFCI, GFCI, TP, WP, LED,LOTO, USB, HDMI, SD, COD, .....
Asbestos free, Lead Free, Mold free,
Energy Free too. hmy:

Did I leave any acronym out!

SOL, is there any acronym that basically means regulated to death:lol:

 

[readydave8]

Even though that is perfectly compliant I wonder how many of us in the business would actually make that install in our own homes?

I did.

 

[kwired]

That's the exact photo I showed the inspector!

Even though that is perfectly compliant I wonder how many of us in the business would actually make that install in our own homes?

If room was arranged like it is in the image probably not. Replace the larger towel rack in the image with the main door entering the room and where else are you going to put the switch without creating other issues?

I just did one recently right next to shower like that (between shower and entry door and very little other space between them) It was in new home - bath was the main bath the kids would be using. Really no practical place to put the switch inside the room except between the shower and entry door, anyplace else may mean trying to find the switch in the dark at some time. Placing it outside the room (opposite side of wall) may work but for a bath where kids are the primary users? I can see it already, little Tommy tormenting his sister while in the shower by turning off the lights, the switch needs to be inside the room it serves in this case. If there was risk of shock I would have a different opinion, the thing is the risk is not very high at all.