406.4 D 4

[FREEBALL]

I am curious as to how others will handle a scenario such as this. Suppose a customer wants a receptacle replaced, in an area that would require AFCI protection. You replace the recpt. and now the circuit trips at the AFCI. The customer states "it wasn't a problem before" and refuses to pay and also refuses to have anymore investigation into the cause, even after educating them. Do you replace with standard and have the customer sign a waiver detailing that you did replace w/ an AFCI and it tripped, that you strongly recommended further investigation. I personally would not feel safe knowing there is an issue. Do you just not replace and state unless agreed to fix problem correctly you cannot complete the work and take the loss. There are some customers out there that would be this way, so just wanted some opinions.

 

[GoldDigger]

Could you protect the extension into the area which requires AFCI by replacing an upstream receptacle with an AFCI device?
That might not trip even though an AFCI breaker does?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree with golddigger-- the big box stores already have afci receptacles so put that at the place you added new wiring

 

[starbolin]

... The customer states "it wasn't a problem before" and refuses to pay and also refuses to have anymore investigation into the cause, even after educating them....

Give them the card for your least favorite competitor and tell the customer they might want a different EC.

 

[Smart $]

... Do you replace with standard and have the customer sign a waiver detailing that you did replace w/ an AFCI and it tripped...

Could you protect the extension into the area which requires AFCI by replacing an upstream receptacle with an AFCI device?
That might not trip even though an AFCI breaker does?

I agree with golddigger-- the big box stores already have afci receptacles so put that at the place you added new wiring

Sounds like he did use an AFCI receptacle. If that be the case, then the question is, was it an AFCI receptacle that he replaced?

Just replacing a standard receptacle on a non-AFCI-protected circuit does not require upgrading to AFCI protection.

(B) Branch Circuit Extensions or Modifications ?
Dwelling Units. In any of the areas specified in 210.12(A),
where branch-circuit wiring is modified, replaced, or extended,
the branch circuit shall be protected...

 

[Smart $]

Give them the card for your least favorite competitor and tell the customer they might want a different EC.

Hmmm... makes me wonder why you'd even have a card from your least favorite EC??? :huh:

 

[iwire]

have the customer sign a waiver detailing that you did replace w/ an AFCI and it tripped, that you strongly recommended further investigation.

There is no waiver that the customer and contractor could come up with that allows the code to be ignored.

The waiver would only be written proof that you knew the code and purposely ignored it.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I am curious as to how others will handle a scenario such as this. Suppose a customer wants a receptacle replaced, in an area that would require AFCI protection. You replace the recpt. and now the circuit trips at the AFCI. The customer states "it wasn't a problem before" and refuses to pay and also refuses to have anymore investigation into the cause, even after educating them. Do you replace with standard and have the customer sign a waiver detailing that you did replace w/ an AFCI and it tripped, that you strongly recommended further investigation. I personally would not feel safe knowing there is an issue. Do you just not replace and state unless agreed to fix problem correctly you cannot complete the work and take the loss. There are some customers out there that would be this way, so just wanted some opinions.

Cap the wires and put a blank cover on it. Since they refuse to have it properly repaired, IMHO you are leaving it in a safe condition.

 

[FREEBALL]

I was referring to this segment. And this was a hypothetical question. In regards to replacing a receptacle. How do you explain this with the cost so much higher. A handyman will just replace the receptacle and be done.



The 2011 National Electric Code has an important little note at the end of section 406.4(D)(4) which just took effect January 1st, 2014. The exact text from this section is shown below:
(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault ciruit interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following:

1. 1. A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter receptacle.
   2. A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter type receptacle.
   3. A receptacle protected by a listed combination type arc-fault circuit interrupter type circuit breaker.

This requirement becomes effective January 1, 2014.
This section requires that all replacement receptacles be arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) protected. This means that if you?re replacing an old outlet in an old home in a location that needs AFCI protection in a new home, the replacement outlet needs to be AFCI protected

 

[FREEBALL]

I think that if AFCI is going to be the standard then the manufactures should do some type of advertising w/ television ads etc. to inform the public of this product, why let it to the contractor to sell it we have to follow code and the consumer doesn't know anything about the code. Regardless of what a reputable contractor tells them, without more qualified information, the customer will opt for the cheaper fix. I am all for safer technology but contractors have been having to sell what the NEC states has to be installed for a long time. IMHO if we are to install something that code requires, manufactures should advertise their brands so consumers can make an educated decision the next time they want to replace or install new electrical items.

 

[GoldDigger]

I think that if AFCI is going to be the standard then the manufactures should do some type of advertising w/ television ads etc. to inform the public of this product, why let it to the contractor to sell it we have to follow code and the consumer doesn't know anything about the code. Regardless of what a reputable contractor tells them, without more qualified information, the customer will opt for the cheaper fix. I am all for safer technology but contractors have been having to sell what the NEC states has to be installed for a long time. IMHO if we are to install something that code requires, manufactures should advertise their brands so consumers can make an educated decision the next time they want to replace or install new electrical items.

Just like prescription medications are advertised on TV so that patients can urge their doctor to prescribe them?

 

[ActionDave]

Just like prescription medications are advertised on TV so that patients can urge their doctor to prescribe them?

Good idea. The CMP's have made it clear they are allied with manufactures that supply electrical equipment; the next logical step is to start working on the demand side.

 

[iwire]

Some of the attendees at the meeting that started the NEC back in 1896

Francis B. Crocker, American Society of Electrical Engineers;

Frank R. Ford, American Street Railway Association;

William H. Merrill, National Board of Fire Underwriters;

Francis W. Jones, Postal Telegraph Company;

A. S. Brown, Western Union Telegraph Company;

Alfred Stone, American Institute of Architects;

William Brophy, International Association Fire Engineers;

C. J. H. Woodbury, American Bell Telephone Company;

S. D. Greene and H. C. Wirt, General Electric Company;

Charles F. Scott, Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company;

E. A. Fitzgerald, Underwriters? National Electric Association;

William J. Hammer, National Electric Light Association;

William Brophy, National Electric Light Association;

Harrison J. Smith, National Electric Light Association;

James I. Ayer, National Electric Light Association;

C. H. Wilmerding, National Electric Light Association;

William McDevitt, Board of Fire Underwriters, Philadelphia;

Morris W. Mead, Bureau of Electricity, Pittsburgh;

E. V. French, Factory Mutual Insurance Company, Boston;

 

[FREEBALL]

Is anybody following this part of code now from a previous post it sounded as if nobody heard about this just curious.

The 2011 National Electric Code has an important little note at the end of section 406.4(D)(4) which just took effect January 1st, 2014. The exact text from this section is shown below:
(4) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Where a receptacle outlet is supplied by a branch circuit that requires arc-fault ciruit interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code, a replacement receptacle at this outlet shall be one of the following:

1. 1. A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter receptacle.
   2. A receptacle protected by a listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter type receptacle.
   3. A receptacle protected by a listed combination type arc-fault circuit interrupter type circuit breaker.

This requirement becomes effective January 1, 2014.
This section requires that all replacement receptacles be arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) protected. This means that if you?re replacing an old outlet in an old home in a location that needs AFCI protection in a new home, the replacement outlet needs to be AFCI protected[/QUOTE]

 

[al hildenbrand]

Is anybody following this part of code now from a previous post it sounded as if nobody heard about this just curious.

There's a lot of us that have been dealing with this change, as of the first of the year this year.

A while ago, I started a thread to try to tease apart the requirement. The key phrase in your quote of the 2011 NEC 406.4(D)(4) is "arc-fault ciruit interrupter protection as specified elsewhere in this Code" for which one has to go to 210.12.

Take a read of Where's the 1st Receptacle Outlet?

Also: 2014 406.4(D)(4) Replacement Receptacles

 

[FREEBALL]

okay understood so if the recpt. being replaced is not the first device in the circuit its ok to replace with standard recpt. and if its unknown if it is or not then a afci breaker should be placed in the panel to protect the entire circuit. I thank you this makes more sense any other opinions on this

 

[GoldDigger]

okay understood so if the recpt. being replaced is not the first device in the circuit its ok to replace with standard recpt. ....

I do not see any such thing being stated that strongly anywhere in this thread....
But it does seem that at least some jurisdictions do state that simply replacing a receptacle (which is already a three wire type) in the same location without extending the circuit does not trigger the AFCI requirement.
And if the receptacle you are replacing is the first one in the circuit or at least is upstream of the entire protected area, that just gives you the opportunity to be able to treat the entire circuit as protected in the event that something else you are doing triggers that protections requirement.

 

[Smart $]

okay understood so if the recpt. being replaced is not the first device in the circuit its ok to replace with standard recpt. and if its unknown if it is or not then a afci breaker should be placed in the panel to protect the entire circuit. I thank you this makes more sense any other opinions on this

I believe you are trying to simplify the requirement, which may not work in each case.

Without going back and reviewing what I posted earlier, I believe I mentioned the requirement involves a change in "wiring" as the qualifier... not replacing an existing device. A receptacle is a device.

The rest of your assessment is rendered moot by the preceding, but if it wasn't, I believe you have to put the AFCI receptacle at the first receptacle after the panel, or the first receptacle in the area specified to be protected if there are receptacles on the supply side in areas not specified to be protected. Doesn't matter where the wiring change is located. As you can tell by the other thread that AH linked to, not everyone is of the same opinion.

 

[ActionDave]

Some of the attendees at the meeting that started the NEC back in 1896

Soulless bastards, right from the start, every one of them.