408.41 Grounded Conductors

[LarryFine]

408.41.

Here's a related question: If one connects three neutrals (3ph) from adjacent circuits together within the panel because there aren't enough neutral terminals, must the breaker handles still be tied?

 

[infinity]

I copied Larry's post here to start a similar thread based on the wording of 408.41. Here's the code section:

408.41 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.

Would anyone here argue that the wording of this section does not permit the neutrals to be spliced in a panel even though splices are permitted by 312.8?
I know that the intent is to say that each neutral needs to terminate in its own hole in the neutral bar but I have recently heard it argued that the wording prohibits neutrals to be spliced within the panelboard.

 

[JFletcher]

I copied Larry's post here to start a similar thread based on the wording of 408.41. Here's the code section:



Would anyone here argue that the wording of this section does not permit the neutrals to be spliced in a panel even though splices are permitted by 312.8?
I know that the intent is to say that each neutral needs to terminate in its own hole in the neutral bar but I have recently heard it argued that the wording prohibits neutrals to be spliced within the panelboard.

I do not see where the wording prohibits splices on the neutral or the creation of a multiwire branch circuit with multiple branch neutrals within the panel board.

The key word is I see it is terminate, which is the terminal or final connection, which is the neutral bus bar. In other words, the terminal point is not the splice, it is the neutral bar.

without arguing semantics or definitions words, if 408.41 was meant to override 312.8, there would be an exception or fine point note following one or both code sections referring to the other.

on a practical point, if you could not splice a pigtail to a single short neutral so it reaches the neutral bar, then you would have to repull the wire or cable. This is obviously not the case, and is not going to happen.

 

[LarryFine]

I agree that the meaning is that each terminated wire have its own terminal, not that every wire must be individually terminated. Otherwise, the manufacturer would have had to install a neutral bus with as many holes as there are breaker spaces.

 

[JFletcher]

I agree that the meaning is that each terminated wire have its own terminal, not that every wire must be individually terminated. Otherwise, the manufacturer would have had to install a neutral bus with as many holes as there are breaker spaces.

I agree completely. But in regards to your post about taking 3 Branch circuits, each of a different phase, and connecting all the neutrals in the panels, would this not be creating parallel neutrals or not all conductors being within one raceway or cable type?

I do not believe that the installation violates either above-mentioned code sections, however I believe it may be a violation of 300.3 (B), unless those three neutrals happen to also be in the same raceway.

 

[ActionDave]

408.41 says Each grounded conductor shall shall terminate in a terminal.

Whatever the intent there isn't any wiggle room in that text.

 

[JFletcher]

408.41 says Each grounded conductor shall shall terminate in a terminal.

Whatever the intent there isn't any wiggle room in that text.

Something that section does preclude by its language is wire-nutting off an abandoned circuit that has a grounded conductor. If it is just wire nutted or capped off, then the wire nut is its terminal point, in violation of the section.

I've never been hit on that, it has never come up, and if it did I would just put it on the neutral bar, put the ungrounded conductor (s) on a breaker labeled spare. I wouldn't argue the language or citation because I do not see a defense against it... Unless a wire nut is also considered a terminal.

 

[infinity]

408.41 says Each grounded conductor shall shall terminate in a terminal.

Whatever the intent there isn't any wiggle room in that text.

That section was added to the NEC to point out that each neutral conductor was to be in its own hole in the neutral bar due to the listing of the panel.

I agree with you that the way it's written there isn't much wiggle room with the interpretation that every neutral within the panel has to go into the neutral bar although that never was the intent.

 

[wwhitney]

Are grounded conductors terminated within panelboards?

The enclosure is not part of the panelboard, is the grounded conductor terminal bar part of the panelboard?

Grounded conductors connected together with a wire nut within a panelboard enclosure are not terminated within the panelboard.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[JFletcher]

That section was added to the NEC to point out that each neutral conductor was to be in its own hole in the neutral bar due to the listing of the panel.

I agree with you that the way it's written there isn't much wiggle room with the interpretation that every neutral within the panel has to go into the neutral bar although that never was the intent.

One neutral wire per neutral bar terminal... I agree. What happens before that point is not covered by 408.41.

To give an example, say you have a piece of super MC with three ungrounded conductors, three grounded conductors and one ground. Would combining the three neutrals in the panel via a 4-port Wago, with a jumper from the Wago to the neutral bar violate 408.41? With that installation, or all the conductors in 1 conduit, 300.3(B) goes out the window. Also assume all Breakers are handled tied.

Eta: I retract my previous argument about parallel neutrals, at the point where the neutrals are spliced, you no longer have a multiwire branch circuit downstream, you have three individual Branch circuits.

 

[infinity]

Are grounded conductors terminated within panelboards?

The enclosure is not part of the panelboard, is the grounded conductor terminal bar part of the panelboard?

Grounded conductors connected together with a wire nut within a panelboard enclosure are not terminated within the panelboard.

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, the splices would actually be within the cabinet not the panelboard. :thumbsup:

 

[infinity]

One neutral wire per neutral bar terminal... I agree. What happens before that point is not covered by 408.41.

To give an example, say you have a piece of super MC with three ungrounded conductors, three grounded conductors and one ground. Would combining the three neutrals in the panel via a 4-port Wago, with a jumper from the Wago to the neutral bar violate 408.41? With that installation, or all the conductors in 1 conduit, 300.3(B) goes out the window. Also assume all Breakers are handled tied.

The argument is whether or not the 3 neutrals conductors in your example have entered the panelboard, if so then the wording of 408.41 says that they must land in an individual hole for each conductor on the neutral bar. As Wayne has stated the splices are not within the panelboard.

 

[JFletcher]

The argument is whether or not the 3 neutrals conductors in your example have entered the panelboard, if so then the wording of 408.41 says that they must land in an individual hole for each conductor on the neutral bar. As Wayne has stated the splices are not within the panelboard.

so, if I'm understanding his argument correctly it is based on the differences of definition between a panel board and enclosure... I can buy that. Are we all on the same page though, regardless of how we got there, that one can create a multiwire branch circuit, or splice neutrals in an enclosure, even one that contains a panelboard?

 

[infinity]

so, if I'm understanding his argument correctly it is based on the differences of definition between a panel board and enclosure... I can buy that. Are we all on the same page though, regardless of how we got there, that one can create a multiwire branch circuit, or splice neutrals in an enclosure, even one that contains a panelboard?

This was/is my exact argument. Creating a MWBC within a cabinet containing a panelboard is permitted regardless of what the wording of 408.41 says. I do agree that the wording can be confusing because it does seem to imply that all individual neutrals must go into a single hole in the neutral bar.

 

[ActionDave]

One neutral wire per neutral bar terminal... I agree. What happens before that point is not covered by 408.41. ....

While I fully agree the intent of 408.41 is that there be one neutral per hole in the neutral buss that is not what it says.

It says, EACH grounded conductor SHALL TERMINATE within the panelboard in an INDIVIDUAL terminal....

 

[infinity]

While I fully agree the intent of 408.41 is that there be one neutral per hole in the neutral buss that is not what it says.

It says, EACH grounded conductor SHALL TERMINATE within the panelboard in an INDIVIDUAL terminal....

But the panelboard is technically within a cabinet so the splices are made in the cabinet not the panelboard.

 

[JFletcher]

While I fully agree the intent of 408.41 is that there be one neutral per hole in the neutral buss that is not what it says.

It says, EACH grounded conductor SHALL TERMINATE within the panelboard in an INDIVIDUAL terminal....

I agree. It does not say that those grounded conductors must be continuous or unbroken from conduit or cable entry to neutral bar.

A short neutral pigtailed to another piece, nor three neutrals from a multiwire branch circuit under a wire nut or Wago are terminated at that point. They terminate on the neutral bar.

Wayne's argument is pretty good. If I have to, I'm going to fall back on the definition of terminate, which is not in chapter 1 definitions. The end or final point of a grounded conductor is the neutral bar, not any splice or point beforehand.

Eta: if that section read that "each grounded conductor entering the panel board cabinet must be run unbroken and spliced into no other conductors before it reaches the neutral bar", it would be ironclad.

If you are arguing that 408.41 prohibits anything we have mentioned, either through an honest reading of the section or just Devil's Advocate, I would point out that 312.8 allows such splices or connections, and we have contradictory code articles.

 

[jaggedben]

The intent of the section is (or should be, in my opinion) to allow a single circuit's grounded conductor to be disconnected without affecting any other circuit's grounded conductor.

Here's a related question: If one connects three neutrals (3ph) from adjacent circuits together within the panel because there aren't enough neutral terminals, must the breaker handles still be tied?

Yes.* And you must group and identity all six conductors as an MWBC, too. Unless you are creating a compliant MWBC then you can't do it.

*If you use a Polaris type block instead of a wire nut to join the neutrals, then each conductor still has an individual termination and you don't have an MWBC. The pigtail ampacity must be appropriate.

 

[LarryFine]

I agree completely. But in regards to your post about taking 3 Branch circuits, each of a different phase, and connecting all the neutrals in the panels, would this not be creating parallel neutrals or not all conductors being within one raceway or cable type?

I do not believe that the installation violates either above-mentioned code sections, however I believe it may be a violation of 300.3 (B), unless those three neutrals happen to also be in the same raceway.

We're talking about three single-phase 120v home runs that enter the panel individually, where each hot wire lands on a single-pole breaker, and the three neutrals are joined together so only one neutral-bus terminal is required.

This is electrically identical to a typical three-phases-plus-a-shared-neutral "full boat" except the neutrals are joined in the panel, rather than in a junction box where one neutral would accompany the three hot wires in a conduit.

 

[JFletcher]

We're talking about three single-phase 120v home runs that enter the panel individually, where each hot wire lands on a single-pole breaker, and the three neutrals are joined together so only one neutral-bus terminal is required.

This is electrically identical to a typical three-phases-plus-a-shared-neutral "full boat" except the neutrals are joined in the panel, rather than in a junction box where one neutral would accompany the three hot wires in a conduit.

Agreed, see my edit to post number 10.