410.116

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goldstar

goldstar

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Just want to bring this to eveyyone's attention seeing as how I recently got tagged for this on a kitchen remodel. The ceiling rafters at this project were 2" x 8" construction, 12" on center. I used (8) Juno 5" non-IC cans as there was no insulation going into the ceiling, and (4) 5" non-IC remodel cans in the dining room (existing sheetrock). I had about a 1/8" clearance above the can but the inspector cited 410.116 stating that there had to be 1/2" clearance between the can and the flooring above if I'm using non-IC cans. This section of the NEC clearly states that and (for the most part) I can understand and see the logic of the ruling. If you're using 6" non-IC cans you can use up to 150 watt bulbs in the can and I'm sure the can could possibly get quite hot (though I can't imagine it could get hot enough to burn through the can and then through the flooring above). In contrast, a 5" can restricts you to a 65 watt bulb, irrespective of whether you use an IC can or not. I think this section of the NEC needs to be re-examined and redefined in cases where the can restricts the bulb wattage.

I changed out the remodel cans and replaced the new work cans only and left the nail-on framing in tact. Took me about 3 hours to change out 12 cans.

BTW, I'm also writing a book on "How to bid jobs real close and then lose money when you have little or no work to begin with". :mad::grin::cool:
 
goldstar said:
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BTW, I'm also writing a book on "How to bid jobs real close and then lose money when you have little or no work to begin with". :mad::grin::cool:
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;)..............................
 
There is nothing in a 5" can that is going to prevent a homeowner from installing a 150 watt bulb. The i/2 inch space has been in the code for a long time
 
hotwire1955 said:
There is nothing in a 5" can that is going to prevent a homeowner from installing a 150 watt bulb.
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Except the thermal over-load. If you over-lamp the fixture it will start to blink.
The i/2 inch space has been in the code for a long time
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Maybe so, but this one got by me. I never considered the flooring above a metal can as combustable material. I always thought if it fits it was good to go. Can't tell you how many installations I have and have seen out there where the can just fits into the space.
 
goldstar said:
BTW, I'm also writing a book on "How to bid jobs real close and then lose money when you have little or no work to begin with". :mad::grin::cool:
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i learned a long time ago that its more enjoyable to sit at home watching oprah than it is to work and lose money.
 
goldstar said:
Except the thermal over-load. If you over-lamp the fixture it will start to blink. Maybe so, but this one got by me. I never considered the flooring above a metal can as combustable material. I always thought if it fits it was good to go. Can't tell you how many installations I have and have seen out there where the can just fits into the space.
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Has your inspector passed that type of install before ? or is he the type that nit picks depending on the day he or she is having?
 
There's nothing in a panel that's gonna prevent an owner from installing a 100A breaker on a #12 wire.
So we gonna build panels with rejection clips? Still can't figure the logistics on how we'll do that, but that's what we should do if we apply the same logic.

hotwire1955 said:
There is nothing in a 5" can that is going to prevent a homeowner from installing a 150 watt bulb. The i/2 inch space has been in the code for a long time
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Strife said:
There's nothing in a panel that's gonna prevent an owner from installing a 100A breaker on a #12 wire.
So we gonna build panels with rejection clips? Still can't figure the logistics on how we'll do that, but that's what we should do if we apply the same logic.
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True, but if an inspector looks at a panel with #12 wire on a 100 amp breaker it will fail inspection as did an installation of non IC cans without the 1/2" space.
 
My concern on this install is not the short term effect but the long term effect of pyrophoric carbonation of the lumber. The constant heating and cooling of the lumber would lower the ignition point making it more prone to igniting even with the proper bulb size. This is also a problem if lumber is too close to a chimney. Would the inspector have allowed a 3/8" piece of drywall installed on the flooring material, providing a non-combustible exposed product?
 
inspector 102 said:
My concern on this install is not the short term effect but the long term effect of pyrophoric carbonation of the lumber. The constant heating and cooling of the lumber would lower the ignition point making it more prone to igniting even with the proper bulb size. This is also a problem if lumber is too close to a chimney. Would the inspector have allowed a 3/8" piece of drywall installed on the flooring material, providing a non-combustible exposed product?
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Yes, I would have if the gypsum board was permanently attached to the underfloor area, i.e. screws, nails, etc.
 
inspector 102 said:
My concern on this install is not the short term effect but the long term effect of pyrophoric carbonation of the lumber. The constant heating and cooling of the lumber would lower the ignition point making it more prone to igniting even with the proper bulb size. This is also a problem if lumber is too close to a chimney. Would the inspector have allowed a 3/8" piece of drywall installed on the flooring material, providing a non-combustible exposed product?
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You make a good point. However, I would think that if you held up a propane torch to the inside top of the metal van it would take some time before it would burn through the can and burn the flooring above. There is no way a 65 watt bulb would throw off that much heat. Having said that, attaching a piece of sheetrock to the underside of the flooring would not have worked because it would have extended both the can and the mounting frame below the ceiling rafters. But I'm thinking a 1/8" piece of sheetmetal might do the trick.
 
inspector 102 said:
My concern on this install is not the short term effect but the long term effect of pyrophoric carbonation of the lumber
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Of course. I was about to say that.

brantmacga said:
i learned a long time ago that its more enjoyable to sit at home watching oprah than it is to work and lose money.
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I beg to differ. Jerry, yes; Oprah, no.
 
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