415/240 V color code

[Carultch]

I don't recall ever seeing an expected 415 voltage reading on my tester in my 30+ years ... 480 sure ..
It's a big Industry, one can't know and do it all I suppose ..
how is that 240/415 range derived, similar to 120/208 I suppose.

240/415 is just like 277/480, except with only 87% the voltage. It's a wye system, and just like 277/480V, the ratio between the two voltages is sqrt(3). The US and most of North America has the two different standard 3-phase voltages (120/208V and 277/480V), based on the scale of the service. Most of the remainder of the world has a middle ground between these two, deployed for most 3-phase services in any scale.

The 415V really "should be" 416V from how 240*sqrt(3) rounds, so you see these numbers used interchangeably.

 

[norcal]

240/415 is just like 277/480, except with only 87% the voltage. It's a wye system, and just like 277/480V, the ratio between the two voltages is sqrt(3). The US and most of North America has the two different standard 3-phase voltages (120/208V and 277/480V), based on the scale of the service. Most of the remainder of the world has a middle ground between these two, deployed for most 3-phase services in any scale.

The 415V really "should be" 416V from how 240*sqrt(3) rounds, so you see these numbers used interchangeably.

The Canukistani's use 600Y/347V instead of 480Y/277V.

 

[petersonra]

The Canukistani's use 600Y/347V instead of 480Y/277V.

some places do. others use 480/277.

there are also a handful of places in the USA using 600V.

 

[Besoeker3]

some places do. others use 480/277.

there are also a handful of places in the USA using 600V.

We did a few variable speed drives for icebreakers in Canada. Those were 600V.

 

[norcal]

some places do. others use 480/277.

there are also a handful of places in the USA using 600V.

We did a few variable speed drives for icebreakers in Canada. Those were 600V.

Have heard that 480V is more common to automakers in Canada, just like 600V in textile mills in the US, although textile manufacturing has been heavily off shored.

 

[Besoeker3]

Have heard that 480V is more common to automakers in Canada, just like 600V in textile mills in the US, although textile manufacturing has been heavily off shored.

That could be. I remember the Icebreakers and not much else in Canada.

 

[Jraef]

Have heard that 480V is more common to automakers in Canada, just like 600V in textile mills in the US, although textile manufacturing has been heavily off shored.

Also many lumber mills in Canada use 480V, because for a while in the 90s, Canadians were buying up shuttered lumber mills in the US at auction and moving the machinery up there, so everything was 480V. I did startup work at several mills in BC and Alberta that were all 480V.

A colleague did a bunch if work in the 90s at textile mills in the Southeast US that were 600V, but I talked to him in the 2010s and he said that the ones he worked at had all closed because the work went offshore. I’ve heard from others more recently though that because the infrastructure is there, non-woven and other high tech fabric industries have been investing in some of these old 600V plants by automating them. So some are reopening, but not hiring back as many people.

 

[Besoeker3]

Mostly my projects were variable speed drives and many of them were from run of the mall. But some were odd balls. One of the paper mills was 700V, some in a cement works were 3.3kV and some were 11kV. They were large drives up to 7MW for oil refineries.

 

[tortuga]

I’m surprised to see so many not familiar with this color code. With the amount of Data Center popping up nationwide, most are using this voltage.

Also shocked to see nothing written as a standard practice.

Sorry NFPA but my standard practice for an international type installation like that with 416/ Y240 voltage would be to use special permission 90.2(C) to keep with the standard practice the rest of the world uses:

My rationale is there will probably be equipment designed for that system that uses that color code and international as well as local engineers / employees will understand for decades, while the local electrical contractor will probably be involved for the few months while the factory is built.

 

[Carultch]

Sorry NFPA but my standard practice for an international type installation like that with 416/ Y240 voltage would be to use special permission 90.2(C) to keep with the standard practice the rest of the world uses:
View attachment 2562462
My rationale is there will probably be equipment designed for that system that uses that color code and international engineers / employees will understand for decades, while the local electrical contractor will probably be involved for the few months while the factory is built.

That color code would not comply, anywhere the NEC applies. If you swap the blue and gray, then we'd have a solution.

 

[gene6]

Sorry NFPA but my standard practice for an international type installation like that with 416/ Y240 voltage would be to use special permission 90.2(C) to keep with the standard practice the rest of the world uses:
View attachment 2562462
My rationale is there will probably be equipment designed for that system that uses that color code and international as well as local engineers / employees will understand for decades, while the local electrical contractor will probably be involved for the few months while the factory is built.

Of course,
Anyone whom has done electrical work for or in the department of defense will instantly recognize this system we call them IEC colors, used in Iraq, Afghanistan and just about everywhere I have been.
They are widely used and accepted world wide for 400/230 including US govt institutions overseas.
It would instantly ring a bell if I saw these colors state side any other color code would be silly in my opinion.
AHJ's allow the rules to be bent and twisted all the time for large installations where in the code it says "conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only the right people service the installation" or whatever.
Don't try to re-invent the wheel for the lower 48, its such a nice small place to visit.
JM2C

 

[tortuga]

That color code would not comply, anywhere the NEC applies.

It could be legal anywhere 90.4 is still in the NEC.
(I cited 90.2 earlier in error) .
90.4 states in part

By special permission, the authority having jurisdiction may
waive specific requirements in this Code or permit alternative
methods where it is assured that equivalent objectives can be
achieved by establishing and maintaining effective safety.

I just think its less safe for some random contractor to take an IEC 416/ Y240 system and make up a new color code than to just use the color code for that system. Probably 80% of the world uses that system now.
I think most sparkies are pretty smart and don't trust colors without verification, you just put the nice signage on the transformers, panels and other places, file a copy of your 'special permission' letter with corporate HQ and your good to go.

Side note if I were designing that server building and they did not have any 416V loads, I would propose using 220/ Y 127 instead. the 220 is probably close enough to 230 just like 240 is and you can use standard 120/240 rated breakers.

 

[winnie]

Side note if I were designing that server building and they did not have any 416V loads, I would propose using 220/ Y 127 instead. the 220 is probably close enough to 230 just like 240 is and you can use standard 120/240 rated breakers.

In that case, just use 208/120.

The server power supplies are switchers with very wide allowed input ranges. They would run fine on 208V. Many would run fine on 120V.

But doing this would defeat the who purpose of going to 416/240, which is to reduce the current going to each server rack for the same power delivery.

Jon

 

[tortuga]

In that case, just use 208/120.

The server power supplies are switchers with very wide allowed input ranges. They would run fine on 208V. Many would run fine on 120V.

But doing this would defeat the who purpose of going to 416/240, which is to reduce the current going to each server rack for the same power delivery.

Jon

Gotchya, its really strange server racks can't just run off 277V.
Do they make 416V HVAC systems ? If not then you would still end up needing 480V
I suppose if your HVAC load was higher than your server load one could do a 480 / 416 / 240 Hi-leg delta and use the 240 for the servers and lighting but thats getting really odd.

 

[jim dungar]

Gotchya, its really strange server racks can't just run off 277V.
Do they make 416V HVAC systems ? If not then you would still end up needing 480V
I suppose if your HVAC load was higher than your server load one could do a 480 / 416 / 240 Hi-leg delta and use the 240 for the servers and lighting but thats getting really odd.

Most data centers keep their critical equipment on separate transformers from their HVAC stuff. This makes it easy to have multiple voltage systems.

 

[Frank DuVal]

Lol, I used to say “at least green is always ground”, but a few weeks ago I saw a 3phase machine from China come in with green as a phase color… that’s not going to age well here I don’t think.

We got in a 10 KW Load Bank a few years ago and one phase was GREEN! I wrote a sternly worded email to the company, who responded "no one ever complained before".

I found all the green "heat shrink", more like rubber boots, slid easily off the black wires, right over the crimped on terminals, so I opened it up an deleted all the green coloring! Now the green phase was black. Problem solved for us.

Just wanted to make sure someone didn't connect an SO cord to the terminals by THAT color code!

 

[Todd0x1]

In that case, just use 208/120.

The server power supplies are switchers with very wide allowed input ranges. They would run fine on 208V. Many would run fine on 120V.

But doing this would defeat the who purpose of going to 416/240, which is to reduce the current going to each server rack for the same power delivery.

Jon

And panel space. If you're feeding them with 208v then its a 2P breaker. The beauty of 415/240 is 240v input is the highest voltage standard off the shelf power supplies are designed for (otherwise we would just be using 277) and with it being L-N on a wye system its only one breaker space per circuit.

 

[ActionDave]

Lol, I used to say “at least green is always ground”, but a few weeks ago I saw a 3phase machine from China come in with green as a phase color… that’s not going to age well here I don’t think.

Bar room trivia for electricians,,It wasn't until around 2005 that green was reserved for equipment ground only.