460v Power Requirement

[fl_wildcat]

I am purchasing some industrial equipment and was wondering if someone could shed some light on the requirements. I'm trying to educate myself on the subject as much as possible.

We are purchasing a machine that operates on 460v 3 phase power. We are looking at sites to lease that have 440v 3 phase and some that only have 220v 3 phase. What would we have to do in either situation to get the power requirement for this machine?

 

[coulter]

440V and 220V hasn't been around for a long time - North America anyway (40+years or so?) Is your application 60hz?

Are you operating on isolated, old generation?

Around here about the only place you find this is at an old, small, mining operation.

carl

 

[barbeer]

Can i assume by your screen name that you are in Fl? If yes - Fl. statutes say if you do not own a building you must use licensed contractors to make any additions, repairs or alterations to the structure or it's systems. That said, the first step is to secure an Electrical contractor of your choosing for him/her to ponder these questions/install your equipment.

IMHO the voltages referenced may nominal and a 480 or 208/240v service should be o.k.

 

[coulter]

IMHO the voltages referenced may nominal and a 480 or 208/240v service should be o.k.

fl -
You made a distinction between 460V and 440V - which leads me to think you understand the difference. Were the referenced available power system voltages nominal or actual?

...That said, the first step is to secure an Electrical contractor of your choosing for him/her to ponder these questions/install your equipment...

If the nominal voltages are as bb thinks, I'd go with his recomendation. If not, or if you have an odd supply - such as corner grounded delta, I'd go with an engineer first.

Of course, I am probably a lot less biased that bb:grin:

carl

 

[petersonra]

I am purchasing some industrial equipment and was wondering if someone could shed some light on the requirements. I'm trying to educate myself on the subject as much as possible.

We are purchasing a machine that operates on 460v 3 phase power. We are looking at sites to lease that have 440v 3 phase and some that only have 220v 3 phase. What would we have to do in either situation to get the power requirement for this machine?

If you are in the US, its probably 230 or 460 volts rather than 220 or 440, no matter what they are calling it. Real estate people know almost nothing about electricity so its not surprising they might describe it in a technically inaccurate way.

An electrician can install a transformer for you if you need a different voltage than what is already there.

Around here for some reason the electric company charges a lot more to install a 230 or 460V 3 phase service so a fair number of industrial buildings have 208 three phase services with transformers to get the actual voltage they need. It seems sort of silly, but thats the way it is.

 

[fl_wildcat]

Thank you all for your responses. Although I'm fl_wildcat I am now in NC. I do, as the Realtors, know almost nothing. I relied more on my father in these situations as he was an ee, but unfortunatley he's no longer with us. Maybe I should have listened more.

In response to barbeer I have no intention of installing these myself and we are a long way from that point anyway. I just want to know if I lease a space what I should be looking for and educate myself as to not rely on the realtor or leasor to tell me. One building is rather old and we have an electrician looking in to it. It was an old furniture factory that was renovated into a flex space. I'm guessing the place is close to 100 years old so who knows what the service is.

Going from the specs of the machine the main drive motor is 60 hz 3 phase 460v classed as a 3 wire. It's coming from Scotland. It also has an immersion heater that they need to know if we have a nuetral and an earth before they can specify 3 phase for it.

So what I'm taking from this is that if I have 3 phase coming in I can install a transformer to get the 460 voltage I need for the equipment. I mean I can have a licensed electrical contractor install it.

Thanks for the help in the absence of my go to engineer.

 

[Rockyd]

Around here for some reason the electric company charges a lot more to install a 230 or 460V 3 phase service so a fair number of industrial buildings have 208 three phase services with transformers to get the actual voltage they need. It seems sort of silly, but thats the way it is.

The difference of 120/208, 277/480 being Wye and 120/230, 230/460 being Delta configurations may be costly due to the difference of availability of equipment asked for. New age logic pretty well killed the deal that industrial is required for industrial establishments. VFD's/soft starters changed a lot of how the world is viewed now.

One needs to pay attention prior to moving the conductors up, or down, on a transformer tap option, as to the configuration of a wye or delta system.

Click here for a little deeper review.

 

[jim dungar]

I'm guessing the place is close to 100 years old so who knows what the service is.

The local utility is probably not "creating" a special voltage for your facility.

The nominal supply voltages in the US are 120, 208, 240, 480V, and 600V. All voltage discussions should be based on these voltages (see NEC definitions and 220.5) unless specifically stated otherwise. The corresponding nominal utilization (equipment) voltages are 115, 200, 230, 460, and 575V.

These have been the US standard voltages for more than 58yrs, since the utilities and NEMA agreed to them in 1949 (originally published as USASI C84.1-1954 but now it is ANSI C84.1-1995), but old slang is hard to kill.

 

[dbuckley]

It's coming from Scotland.

I think thats your problem right there.

I'm thinking that the Scots have built a USA compatible machine (its 60Hz, kind of a giveaway) but they don't know that in the USA you have a 480V supply that uses 460V equipment, as specifying a different supply and utilization voltages is unheard of in the rest of the world. They read the nameplate on the motor, it says 460V, so they tell you that 460V is what it wants.

My guess is that it that this equipment is intended to operate on a 480V supply.

 

[coulter]

...My guess is that it that this equipment is intended to operate on a 480V supply.

Yes

It also has an immersion heater that they need to know if we have a nuetral and an earth before they can specify 3 phase for it.

Now, Scotland wants to know if the service is Y or D.

So what I'm taking from this is that if I have 3 phase coming in I can install a transformer to get the 460 voltage I need for the equipment..

Or you may not have to. Time to get your knowledgeable wizzard to check the existing power source.

I don't know what you are paying for the machine, maybe its time to pay someone to make sure you end up with a machine that fits the available power source. This forum abounds with the horrors of mis-matched power/equipment installs.

carl

 

[petersonra]

You might want to have someone knowledgeable take a look at what is being provided to make sure it meets all the required US specs, even if you have to dish out some money to do so. Many times machines coming from overseas take a lot of liberties with the normal conventions and requirements we have here.

I think all machine control panels are required to be UL listed in NC and you will fail the electrical inspection if it is not UL listed. It could cost you a huge chunk of money to "fix" it once it is here, and you have little in the way of recourse against a foreign company, since they already will have your money.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of machine can you get for less buying in Scotland than in the US, if it is not a trade secret?

 

[GeorgeB]

We are purchasing a machine that operates on 460v 3 phase power. We are looking at sites to lease that have 440v 3 phase and some that only have 220v 3 phase. What would we have to do in either situation to get the power requirement for this machine?

I've read forward, but from the "what you are supplied" issue, it would be good to have some idea of how many of these machines you will have, and the total load so the service capacity can be confirmed. From Europe, the machine was likely designed for 380-415/3/50 which suggests their "460" suggestion ... they want to maintain the "Volts/Hertz" ratio, and unlike with our common motors, it probably isn't dual voltage wound. I'd go a step further, and not be at all surprised that it is a "wye-delta" start for its motors over 5kW which further limits dual voltage situations.

SO, AS OTHERWISE suggested, determine what it is. Their heater question suggests single-phase heaters and that they are another voltage altogether. I would ask them for their "usual wiring connection diagram" and give that to your electrician (and realtor; put the responsibility on him to do some work for his commission).

Concerning JUST a transformer ... usually IN MY EXPERIENCE facilities with 208 or 240 are "commercial" vs "industrial". There is much cross over. Yes, I can go from 240 to 480, but if there is a lot of higher voltage load, your electrician should evaluate it.

 

[fl_wildcat]

It's been a few days since I last checked and I thank you all for the input. My intent was to educate myself a little but I can see there are many factors to consider. I do intend to consult with an electrician and or an engineer before we proceed and will do so sooner than later. Was just trying to determine quickly whether to consider this old factory for my business. Hats off to you all for being so knowledgable, now I know why I didn't follow in my fathers footsteps and become an electrical engineer. Do wish he was here though, would save me alot of embarassment...and $$.