480 v 3 phase blower motor

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I agree except . I am 100% sure all disconncts were checked for loose wiring by 3 electricians. These motors were problematic before the disconnect failures. ..first thing done was check all connection and terminations. Would it benefit us to heat test these points with infrared
Did they just try to turn screws or did they also try pulling on conductors? Screw can be tight but if conductor is not in correct placement in the connection it can still be a poor connection, and on some of these IEC contactors it is not always easily visible where the proper opening actually is.

Poor connection leads to voltage drop, which may have led to motor performance problems earlier on, and eventually the poor connection gets hot enough for total failure.
 
2 j men and 1 master checked them.. that doesnt mean anything more than thats why those 4 were told to check them. After problems started these motors were by "others" rescently. Now instead constant start stop slmost sfter each car they run until there is no car for a period of time. That time amout I dont know.
 
The terminations in the disconnect are similar to the starters . Very small very possible one many battle witts with stranded wire to get it in. Although the clamping mechanism is possibly better in the starter
 
Your photo looks to have maybe captured the load side of the disconnect wiring going into the splitter block. If so, I don't see anything too unusual looking there.

But if there is another main disconnect ahead of this and the load terminals in the photo are of a feeder breaker feeding all of these starters, I'm going to take a shot in the dark on a theory here; someone used DLO cable where they should not have. Those connections to the splitter block even appear to be something like that too. You can't get THHN into a smal straight shot connection like that without seriously bending it, after which you will still be able to see evidence of the bends, which I don't see. It's either that they connected the conductors BEFORE they mounted the litter block, OR they used extra flexible wire like DLO cable. If they did it here, they likely did it on the main disconnect as well.

99% of mechanical lugs, like those in the splitter block shown and the standard mechanical lugs that come with breakers or disconnects, are NOT rated to accept DLO or other high strand count wires. So what happens is that although they seem plenty tight, there is still a lot of resistance at that connection, it over heats, loosens and the problem gets worse and worse.
 
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So I used my infrared gun on 2 problem motors and it says as much as 202 f at center outside of motor when not running. 150 / 165 where circuit make up is. At the disconnect that failed, with it bypassed and motors running. They read 88 ish. This is no hi dollar tester just trying to find a control to start from
 
So I used my infrared gun on 2 problem motors and it says as much as 202 f at center outside of motor when not running. 150 / 165 where circuit make up is. At the disconnect that failed, with it bypassed and motors running. They read 88 ish. This is no hi dollar tester just trying to find a control to start from
202F on the outside of a motor frame is nothing. Modern motor insulation is usually Class F or H now, so even if it is Class F, that's 311F maximum.
 
202F on the outside of a motor frame is nothing. Modern motor insulation is usually Class F or H now, so even if it is Class F, that's 311F maximum.
Will these temperatures affect terminal rating. I realize infrared test like the one I did wont prove or dismiss anything. So are terminals possible of failing at what degree over their rating. I will see if I can find our. 88 degrees at termination point is over 75 but under wire rating @ 90 degrees f
 
With the mechanical terminations in the disconnect replaced with new everything is doing fine now. Another fan in the starter cabinet. Temp is 80 . The only thing I find that could even come close to why this happened is A the motors were, when I first looked at whats going on, were starting and stopping after each car if there was even a 15/20 sec gao between cars. This time I see that after a car the motors are still running for a while before stopping. At a much slower speed. Were they adjust to run cooler without the ATL start? I think so. Owner says nothing has changed since they were installed. Hmmmmmm?????????
 
I took a video of the motors that are now set to coast until next car, made a few phone calls and was told that they had been adjusted from start and stop after each gap to coast until next car. If it helps any other reader, when you know somethings not right dont stop tracing down all the ways its right and wrong. In our case I learnrd alot about people and equipment. Thanks to those who responded
 
202F on the outside of a motor frame is nothing. Modern motor insulation is usually Class F or H now, so even if it is Class F, that's 311F maximum.
Respectfully disagree.
That's close to 100C on the outside.
That would pose a danger to personnel.
 
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One of the other motors with the same name plate rationgs
 
With the mechanical terminations in the disconnect replaced with new everything is doing fine now. Another fan in the starter cabinet. Temp is 80 . The only thing I find that could even come close to why this happened is A the motors were, when I first looked at whats going on, were starting and stopping after each car if there was even a 15/20 sec gao between cars. This time I see that after a car the motors are still running for a while before stopping. At a much slower speed. Were they adjust to run cooler without the ATL start? I think so. Owner says nothing has changed since they were installed. Hmmmmmm?????????

Frequent starting will raise motor temperature as well as thermal overload temperature. After enough starts it will reach thermal trip range.
This frequent starting current will also raise temperature of terminations, and if one is a little weak will start to work on it and it will get weaker over time.

I have some confusion of how you are running at a low speed between cars if all you have for control method is across the line. I can see the fan simply coasting between cars and if that duration is short enough that will cut down on how much acceleration is necessary at the next start though.
 
I see ur point. I have assumed they are ATL starters because when manually turned on or when they come on under auto they had much higher amps . This a co worker that had been to check them told me. In the range of 100 /150/200. This seemed to indicate a atl or softstarter that had bypassed the thermal . If I say this right. Protection. ..coast maybe the wrong term as well. So ill say it this way ,,, a car has exited and the motor has slowed down but it still running and the couple hours I was there they have actually never stopped running. When the problems started the motors would slow down and stop or restart for next car.
 
What you have pictured in post 1 is across the line controllers. You can get soft starters that are fairly compact, but they would need derated if they have frequent starting and for 10 hp 480 volts and frequent starting wouldn't be as small as in your picture.

You could have a master VFD supplying multiple motors, each motor would need individual overcurrent protection but don't see the need for additional contactor in each motor circuit, and generally is a no no to allow individual motor switching in such situations, if one motor trips overload it would be best to send a signal to the VFD to shut down then to just remove that motor from the drive output.
 
I read up on the starters based on what I could look up when not working and arl or soft start is what assumed based on how they work and the size and type like u said. There must be a vfd type control before the starters that changes something. That I dont know but if amps were way high then more typical on startup then mayve it starts at lower voltage or maybe hertz
 
I read up on the starters based on what I could look up when not working and arl or soft start is what assumed based on how they work and the size and type like u said. There must be a vfd type control before the starters that changes something. That I dont know but if amps were way high then more typical on startup then mayve it starts at lower voltage or maybe hertz
A VFD will proportionally control both voltage and frequency. Example at half speed instead of 60 Hz 480 V the drive output will be 30Hz 240 V.

If you have ten 10hp motors all on one drive -- it will not be too hard to miss the drive.
 
I missed that this was a car wash. Ahh, memories... Not all good. I had 3 clients over the years who built car washes and in fact I once considered building one as a side business, they can be surprisingly profitable if you find the right location.

A common way this is done, depending on local weather conditions, is for the drying blowers to have heaters inside. That's because if someone goes through on a day when humidity is really high, it doesnt dry the car. Or if the air temperature is already low, the high speed of the blower air can bring it down to below freezing on the metal surfaces of the car and cause ice, which leaves water spots after it melts. Either condition ends up bringing the customer back for a freebie. So the heater coils are added to the blowers. But it takes too long for the elements to heat up if turned off so when there are multiple cars, they are left on in between. That then means that the blowers must ALSO be left on, otherwise with zero air flow across the heaters, they burn out. So in between cars they will have a VFD that drops the blower speed down to a minimum flow level deemed necessary to protect the heater elements. If there is no VFD, the blowers might be two speed, same reason. If that's the case, you would have 2 or 3 contactors per motor, depending on the type of 2 speed motor used.

Cheap versions of this just use ATL for the blowers, but attempt to use delayed Off commands combined with the spin-down time of the blowers as a buffer to maintain some air flow across the heaters. That never works out in my experience and the symptom of that not working is that the motors over heat because they are constantly being cycled on and off. That may very well be what you have going on here, because you have the symptom and you mentioned timers. The timers would be part of a two speed starter as well, but it's not likely that you would have these symptoms if that were the case. If that's what is going on, nuisance tripping of overloads and the eventual loss of the motors is just going to have to be considered a cost of doing business on the cheap (false economy really), unless the owner is willing to pony up for a more expensive initial outlay for an upgrade. There are aftermarket car wash control system builders who specialize in exactly that by the way.

You cannot do this with a soft starter by the way. I tried, same result as above. Soft starters, contrary to what some salesmen will tell you, do NOT reduce motor heating from high duty cycle. The watts wasted as heat in starting the motor are lowered because the current is reduced, but the amount of time it takes place is extended at the same time, so the net ENERGY given up as heat in the motor stays the same (debated by some that it might actually be more, but it's my opinion that it nets out as equal).
 
I do not see a temperature rise specified, unless it goes with one of the letter designations.
I do see three phase and ~24A at 230V.
It says "Class F" on the right side, just below the "PH 3". Class F means an allowable 115C temperature RISE over the 40C ambient rating, so 115C maximum temperature, which is 311F.

Besoeker,
That is of course hotter than most would consider to be safe to touch, but that is a machine guarding issue, not the motor mfrs problem. And as always, just because something says you CAN does not mean that you SHOULD. I only brought it up because this subject comes up a lot now that people can get affordable IR thermal scanners. For the first time, they see something like 202F on the motor case and immediately assume there is an impeding disaster. But in reality, motors have been running that hot or significantly more for decades, it's just that nobody bothered to notice when it meant holding a temperature probe to a running machine for 3 minutes.
 
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