550.32(d)

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ohiosparky

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This little article has potentially caused a large problem for me. I've worked with a group of investors for about 5 years now. During that time I would say we have changed or added 200 services is mobile home parks. We have a new job in a new city that we haven't worked in before. And this little tidbit from the NEC was brought to my attention for the first time. We already have the disconnects purchased and they do not have space for additional breakers. The code article I feel is a bit vague. First of all were does it say that a "shed" needs to have power run to it? Second the homes are located so close to one and other there is not enough room to put a shed in. I'm thinking of if push comes to shove the lugs are rated for 2 wires so I'll add an inline fuse there and that will satisfy the article. Any one else have any other thoughts?
Thanks
 
ohiosparky said:
This little article has potentially caused a large problem for me. I've worked with a group of investors for about 5 years now. During that time I would say we have changed or added 200 services is mobile home parks. We have a new job in a new city that we haven't worked in before. And this little tidbit from the NEC was brought to my attention for the first time. We already have the disconnects purchased and they do not have space for additional breakers. The code article I feel is a bit vague. First of all were does it say that a "shed" needs to have power run to it? Second the homes are located so close to one and other there is not enough room to put a shed in. I'm thinking of if push comes to shove the lugs are rated for 2 wires so I'll add an inline fuse there and that will satisfy the article. Any one else have any other thoughts?
Thanks
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This provision was in the 1999 code at 550-23(d), was moved to 550.32(D) in the 2002, was in the 1996 NEC as 550-23(c) the 1993 code at 550-23(c) and even the 1990 code at 550-23(c). :) 1990 to 2005 is 15 years.....
 
apparently all of the other inspectors I've worked with over looked this gem also. I'm sorry if I seam a bit bitter with this article but it is one that I really don't see the point of especially in this situation. The panels we are installing inside the units have on average 25 open spaces. Why not take power from there??? Again there is no way a shed could even fit in the space provided. Actually now a new thought just came to me. This article has been around for 15 years, the park already had it's services upgraded. The work couldn't be more then 10 years old, were was that article then????
 
luckly the state covers mobile home parks here and I don't have to deal with them.

The way I read it, is if you have space in the panel located within the moblie home, then that will satisfy the requirement.
 
The article is not saying there has to be a shed, nor that you have to bring power to a shed, nor that you have to have a permanent connection point outside each individual mobile home.

Am I not right in thinking that the ?service equipment? addressed in 550.32, and in particular in 550.32(A), is in one location that is the responsibility of the park?s owner, and that the wires from that point to the disconnecting means for each individual home is a ?feeder?? I think that the idea is for the park owner to be able to install a shed, not for each home owner to install a shed. 550.32(D) does give you that option. You can install a means for connecting a shed to each unit?s disconnect. You can instead install a means for connecting a shed to the single service that provides power to the entire park.

Does the service equipment have a means for (eventually, if needed) providing power to a shed? If so, the article is satisfied. If not, it is the park owner?s problem to provide one. You don?t have to provide one with the individual disconnects that you have already bought.
 
cowboyjwc said:
The way I read it, is if you have space in the panel located within the mobile home, then that will satisfy the requirement.
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I'm not so sure, John. Does the panel within the mobile home count as the "service panel" that the article is talking about?
 
ohiosparky said:
apparently all of the other inspectors I've worked with over looked this gem also. I'm sorry if I seam a bit bitter with this article but it is one that I really don't see the point of especially in this situation. The panels we are installing inside the units have on average 25 open spaces. Why not take power from there??? Again there is no way a shed could even fit in the space provided. Actually now a new thought just came to me. This article has been around for 15 years, the park already had it's services upgraded. The work couldn't be more then 10 years old, were was that article then????
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I'm not sure, ohiosparky, but I have the sense that because a mobile home is manufactured in a plant and inspected there, and a certificate is issued evidencing compliance with applicable codes, and that a certificate is required by states that accept and register such homes, that to adapt the interior wiring to accomodate an additional exterior branch circuit or feeder, would void the certificate. Using the service entrance equipment or the disconnect required to be located within 30 feet of the mobile home is a way to keep the listing, labeling and certification in place. :)
 
I've been running this through my head all day unfortunatly it does refer to the exterior equipment. Yes after the first means of disconnect they are considerd feeders, unfortunatly the code reads service equipment meaning before the feeders. The owner is usually responsiable for the service/feeders to the subpanel then it falls on the mobile home owner. In this case though we are upgrading the homes to all electric the owner of the park also owns the homes (for now). The local external disconnecting means they refer to in the article is in reference to 550.32(a) were the main service is not within sight of the unit then you are allowed to put in a disconnect with in 30ft of the unit.
 
Even if that is the case there still is not any room to even put a shed or even a refridgerator box between the units. Again I've wired many of the services before and have never run into this problem before.
 
ohiosparky said:
Even if that is the case there still is not any room to even put a shed or even a refridgerator box between the units. Again I've wired many of the services before and have never run into this problem before.
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Off topic, just a bit, but....sounds to me like the fire-separation distance may not be in accordance with Section R302 of the IRC if there's not even enough room to fit a refrigerator between two mobile homes. A fire in one would sure be difficult to contain and would more than likely communicate quickly throughout a lot of these. :)
 
Excellent point. I would assume though that since the units are exsisting they would be "grandfathered" into the codes. It just makes my life difficult. Does anyone feel my thought of adding an inline fuse holder to the service satisfy the requirement?
 
ohio,

If the lugs in the main disconnect are rated for two conductors ( rare )

then I would say you have provided a means for 'Additional Outside Electrical

Equipment' to be connected. JMO.
 
(D) Additional Outside Electrical Equipment. Means for connecting a mobile home accessory building or structure or additional electrical equipment located outside a mobile home by a fixed wiring method shall be provided in either the mobile home service equipment or the local external disconnecting means permitted in 550.32(A).

I see that all so far is thinking about a shed as mentioned in the section.
I think that the part after the word ?OR? could mean a well pump, AC unit or accessory building.
Unless the mobile home came with a means to connect an AC unit then one must be installed from the service or the listing of the interior panel will be compromised.

550.20 (B) Outside Heating Equipment, Air-Conditioning Equipment, or Both. A mobile home provided with a branch circuit designed to energize outside heating equipment, air-conditioning equipment, or both, located outside the mobile home, other than room air conditioners, shall have such branch-circuit conductors terminate in a listed outlet box, or disconnecting means, located on the outside of the mobile home. A label shall be permanently affixed adjacent to the outlet box and shall contain the following information:
 
Yeah Charlie, I thought that when I wrote it, but as wbalsam said they are manufactured and every one I have ever seen has an exterior meter/main and a subpanel inside. The exterior meter/main is usually fed from another service located somewhere in the park, with a 200 amp breaker feeding several spaces.

Is your thinking that it's one of the two exterior ones they are talking about?

If you read 550.32(D) it says ....the local external disconnecting means permitted in 550.32(A). 550.32(A) seems to only talk about the service equipment at the space.
 
ohiosparky said:
The local external disconnecting means they refer to in the article is in reference to 550.32(a) where the main service is not within sight of the unit then you are allowed to put in a disconnect with in 30ft of the unit.
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It?s actually the other way around. The main service has to be within sight. You are allowed to put the main service out of sight, if you put in the local disconnect.
 
cowboyjwc said:
550.32(A) seems to only talk about the service equipment at the space.
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My view is that they can?t be talking about that, because the panel inside the unit is not a service panel.

cowboyjwc said:
Is your thinking that it's one of the two exterior ones they are talking about?
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Precisely.

I think the wording, as currently written, states that it must be possible for the mobile home park to have sheds or other outdoors equipment, and that it is not the individual unit that has to be provided with the means of connecting its own shed or other outdoors equipment. I say that because they don?t allow for the possibility of using the panel inside the unit (it not being a ?service?) as the power source for this ?outdoors thingy.?

But I am in two minds on this question. Part of me wonders if this requirement is not simply the ?mobile home equivalent? of 210.52(E).

Please look carefully at the wording of the last two lines of 550.32(D). It says, ?mobile home service equipment,? then allows for the local disconnect to be used instead. This can be interpreted as an accidental misuse of the word ?service.? We should remember that we all know at least four languages. Our native language (that would be English for me) is but one of them. The language of our profession is another. The language of the NEC is a third. The fourth I will call ?conversational language,? and by that I mean the use of words in an informal, non-technical, and imprecise manner, with the expectation that our listeners will ?know what I mean.? The NEC is not suppose to employ that fourth language; it needs to be precise, and it needs to employ only its own language. Perhaps the authors erred, in saying ?mobile home service equipment.?

The word ?service,? that single word by itself, has a precise, technical meaning. But what did the authors mean by the entire phrase, ?mobile home service equipment?? That is the phrase the home owners might use to describe the one and only panel of which they have any knowledge: the one in their home.

So, if that is what the authors meant, and if the panel in the unit has 20 or more spare circuit spaces, then isn?t the requirement already met? Does anyone think that the ?means for connecting . . . by a fixed wiring method? means that the circuit breaker, conduit, and outdoor junction box (or outlet box or other box) must actually be installed (i.e., ready for something to be immediately connected)? I don?t. That would be the duty of the manufacturer, and the NEC does not apply to the manufacturer. If we add a conduit and an external connection box, then we will have altered the manufactured unit. I agree with those who say that that would void the warrantee and the listing.

That brings me back to the notion that the authors did not mean for us to power this outdoor connection from inside the unit.
 
Mobile Home Park Owner

Mobile Home Park Owner

Been awhile since I went outside to look at the service runs. I may forget a piece of it.

5' lot limits are grandfathered (IN) 10' is now required.

Service drops after the meter have a breaker box on the pole for additional power requirements. This breaker box services additional mobile home receptacles where needed, AC units, Heating units, etc. Major items are not added to the mobile home since the old ones are typically 30A homes on 50A service. IN recently required all service upgraded to 100A. A nice touch for a mobile home with only 30A.

Equipment such as AC units are often placed under the mobile home with one side exposed for the blowers. It's also nice to have those added receptacles to power service equipment such as sewer routers. An outside receptacle on a 30A MH is easy to blow.

Remember that with all the nose-lifting some folk have that mobile home laws and regulations are often poorly written.
 
Quote: My view is that they can’t be talking about that, because the panel inside the unit is not a service panel.

While origianlly I was speaking of the, shall we say sub-panel, in the unit, the one I was speaking of in this case was the one at the space, and while I agree that yes it is not technically a service, it is acting as one. Again all I have ever done is some service work in the parks, but it was usually on the underground wiring. I would go from a main panel to a space and then jump from space to space usually cover 4 or 5 of them. At each space there is a meter and a main breaker and then the unit is cord connected from a j-box under the unit to that breaker.

So you basically have, service, service, sub-panel. And I agree that this is not the correct way to describe this, but that is what I think they are saying in that article.

But then again I think Celtic's funny, so what do I know? : )
 
an update

an update

Found out a bit more information that I wanted to pass on. I've noticed a few others (myself included) have made mention of a subpanel located inside the mobile homes. As I mentioned earlier We've installed many services in mobile homes in the past few years no one has ever brought this to my attention before. 550.11(A) states a disconnecting means need be present in side of each home. A main breaker is necessary inside as well as outside on the pole. In a sence it still is a subpanel (needing 4 wires) but at least in my way of thinking typically a subpanel doesn't have a main disconnect.
I've also found out in this particular area the health department is responsable for everything with the exception of the service equiptment. The shed I am told would fall on on the health department. Health Department is not going to enforce that article.
 
ohiosparky said:
In a sence it still is a subpanel (needing 4 wires) but at least in my way of thinking typically a subpanel doesn't have a main disconnect.
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Depends on the application. FWIW, "subpanel" isn't defined in the NEC. You mean a panel that is not serving as the main service disconnect, therefore EGC and nuetral not bonded, I assume.
 
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