5kw genset disconnect

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M. D. said:
I know that most of the easy tran from reliance were 702 code compliant ,.. not sure what, if any changes were made since 2008...

Iteresting post Roger,.. I was also wondering about the "kill switch" for the engine ...
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I am not addressing the generator itself but the branch circuit/feeders and the requirement for a disconnect to be installed to comply with 225.36.
 
jwelectric said:
They also have the neutral of the generator bonded to the frame of the generator which now is a violation of the bonding rules outlined by the NEC.
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Are you certain that all manufacturer's bond the neutral to the housing ? I remember installing a gen set for a gas station just prior to Y2K. The service was 120/240 single phase. I contacted the manufacturer and asked this question and she told me that the neutral from the generator was a floating neutral and not bonded to the enclosure.
 
I know we can all read but let's read the definition of :

Service Equipment The necessary equipment, usually consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply.

Doesn't the gen-set and xfer switch have all these ?
 
goldstar said:
Are you certain that all manufacturer's bond the neutral to the housing ? I remember installing a gen set for a gas station just prior to Y2K. The service was 120/240 single phase. I contacted the manufacturer and asked this question and she told me that the neutral from the generator was a floating neutral and not bonded to the enclosure.
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The 120v/240v single phase generator that I have specifically says "floating neutral". I have verified that with a DMM, and also verified that the "ground" is bonded to the frame and not to the neutral. It is typically wired to the house using a 4-wire cord with L14-30 plugs/receptacles.
 
goldstar said:
Service Equipment The necessary equipment, usually consisting of a circuit breaker(s) or switch(es) and fuse(s) and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors to a building or other structure, or an otherwise designated area, and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the supply.

Doesn't the gen-set and xfer switch have all these ?
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More importantly, does it have the 230.66 sticker.

230.66 Marking.
Service equipment rated at 600 volts or less shall be marked to identify it as being suitable for use as service equipment. Individual meter socket enclosures shall not be considered service equipment.
 
goldstar said:
Are you certain that all manufacturer's bond the neutral to the housing ? I remember installing a gen set for a gas station just prior to Y2K. The service was 120/240 single phase. I contacted the manufacturer and asked this question and she told me that the neutral from the generator was a floating neutral and not bonded to the enclosure.
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If the generator comes with receptacles already installed on the frame of the generator then yes I am sure that the neutral is bonded to the frame

Remember I am asking about a portable generator.

If a disconnect is rated as service equipment it will have a label on the inside cover somewhere that makes this statement
 
jwelectric said:
If the generator comes with receptacles already installed on the frame of the generator then yes I am sure that the neutral is bonded to the frame

Remember I am asking about a portable generator.

If a disconnect is rated as service equipment it will have a label on the inside cover somewhere that makes this statement
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Mike,
I thought that it would have to have a neutral to frame bond for that type of generator, but many do not have that bond, even when they are intended to be used with cord and plug connected equipment.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Mike,
I thought that it would have to have a neutral to frame bond for that type of generator, but many do not have that bond, even when they are intended to be used with cord and plug connected equipment.
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If this is true then help me understand why UL makes these statements.


ENGINE GENERATORS FOR PORTABLE USE (FTCN)
GENERAL
This category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated 15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating- or direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery-charging circuits.
When a portable generator is used to supply a building wiring system:
1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, ??National Electrical Code?? (NEC).



But this still does not address the question if the conductors coming from the generator are required to comply with 225.36.

This is the main issue I am wanting to address, please.
 
Maybe someone can put this post in the one above

250.34(C) Grounded Conductor Bonding. A system conductor that is required to be grounded by 250.26 shall be connected to the generator frame where the generator is a component of a separately derived system.

If UL says that the portable generator is a SDS then this code section would apply also.
 
When a portable generator is used to supply a building wiring system:
1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, ??National Electrical Code?? (NEC).
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Sorry Mike, I don't want to get too far off topic but I was under the impression that for a system to be considered "separately derived" you had to transfer not only the ungrounded conductors but the neutral as well. In this case, once you plug in the power cord the neutrals become bonded together do they not ?
 
jwelectric said:
I am not addressing the generator itself but the branch circuit/feeders and the requirement for a disconnect to be installed to comply with 225.36.
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Good morning ,...Mike I think that it depends on whether a cord connected transfer switch is considered a connection from the generator to the premises wiring..

What gets me is that you could have an un-housed generator with a 2008 702.11 compliant disconnect ,.a kill switch, two points to disconnect the cord,.. a U.L. rated transfer switch , and still it seems a service rated disconnect is required ??... this section needs work ..
 
goldstar said:
Sorry Mike, I don't want to get too far off topic but I was under the impression that for a system to be considered "separately derived" you had to transfer not only the ungrounded conductors but the neutral as well. In this case, once you plug in the power cord the neutrals become bonded together do they not ?
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This is very true and a portable generator that usees one of those small multi-switch transfers does not break the neutral nor does that little panel have a rating as service equipment.
 
M. D. said:
Good morning ,...Mike I think that it depends on whether a cord connected transfer switch is considered a connection from the generator to the premises wiring..

What gets me is that you could have an un-housed generator with a 2008 702.11 compliant disconnect ,.a kill switch, two points to disconnect the cord,.. a U.L. rated transfer switch , and still it seems a service rated disconnect is required ??... this section needs work ..
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So do you think that a disconnect as outlined in 225.36 needs to be installed in order to be compliant?
 
Like I said in my first post it depends on how it is being used.


I will say the agument for a service rated disconnect even for portable generators supplying some or all of the premises wiring is strong ,.. and one more point .. even if the the furnace switch was or will be in the future ,.service rated ,.. it will not , in most cases meet the location requirement found in 225..
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Mike,
Take a look at page 45 in this Honda manual. It has receptacles and has no neutral to case bond.
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Page 15 of that same manual will reveal that this generator is designed as a back up generator to be used on a building.

250.34(C) of the NEC will mandate that if this generator is to be used as a stand alone power source then it is required to have the neutral bonded to the frame of the generator.

To use this generator as a stand alone power source the only fault current protection would be through the GFCI device.

Now would this generator require a disconnect as outlined in 225.36 when it gets connected to a building?
 
goldstar said:
Sorry Mike, I don't want to get too far off topic but I was under the impression that for a system to be considered "separately derived" you had to transfer not only the ungrounded conductors but the neutral as well. In this case, once you plug in the power cord the neutrals become bonded together do they not ?
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Mike- your buddy Terry Cromer told me this last night and says to say hello.
I was told that the ground to neutral bond on the generator is what determined the genset as separately derived. When this is the case then a transfer switch must open the neutral conductor also.

My point is that the breaking of the neutral does not make it an sds it is the bonding of the neutral to the case that makes it an sds. Am I incorrect-again.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Mike- your buddy Terry Cromer told me this last night and says to say hello.
I was told that the ground to neutral bond on the generator is what determined the genset as separately derived. When this is the case then a transfer switch must open the neutral conductor also.

My point is that the breaking of the neutral does not make it an sds it is the bonding of the neutral to the case that makes it an sds. Am I incorrect-again.
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Terry is a good man no matter what others have to say. He help me when no one else would.

I agree with the bonding and the SDS aspect of this but what I am asking is if the generator will require a disconnect as outlined in 225.36.
 
jwelectric said:
Terry is a good man no matter what others have to say. He help me when no one else would.

I agree with the bonding and the SDS aspect of this but what I am asking is if the generator will require a disconnect as outlined in 225.36.
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I know that and I don't know the answer but wanted to clarify on the SDS
 
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