6 disconnect rule

[brett Harsha]

You can almost always right-click on the picture, select 'copy image' (or just click on the image and use CTRL-C), then select 'paste' (or CTRL-V) in the response box.

For example:

View attachment 2553244

You can almost always right-click on the picture, select 'copy image' (or just click on the image and use CTRL-C), then select 'paste' (or CTRL-V) in the response box.

For example:

View attachment 2553244

Hey it worked this time. I converted from a .PNG to a .JPG maybe that made a difference.

Thanks!!!

 

[LarryFine]

Outstanding. Now that we have pics, please restate your questions, referring to specific wires, breakers, etc.

 

[brett Harsha]

Outstanding. Now that we have pics, please restate your questions, referring to specific wires, breakers, etc.

This is a panel and and a sub panel that is not properly protected with a main breaker as it appears it has more than 6 disconnects . Can some one identify what I believe to be a improper grounding since the service ground seem to be bonded to the ground bus in the sub panel. can't tell how it is bonded to a ground rod or any other grounding electrodes.

can you install a AFCI with out installing a ground to the receptacle.

This house has 3 prong outlets but no ground conductors to the outlets is that permitted by the NEC?

 

[LarryFine]

Based on left pic being the main panel:

This is a panel and and a sub panel that is not properly protected with a main breaker as it appears it has more than 6 disconnects .

Unless there is a main disconnect ahead of the panel, or you can de-energize the entire panel with no more than six "throw of the hand", that installation is not compliant.

Can some one identify what I believe to be a improper grounding since the service ground seem to be bonded to the ground bus in the sub panel. can't tell how it is bonded to a ground rod or any other grounding electrodes.

What do you mean by "the service ground"? The green wire appears to run from panel to panel,

can you install a AFCI with out installing a ground to the receptacle.

Yes, all other things being complaint; like a GFCI, an AFCI does not depend on an EGC to function.

(A GFCI device does depend on the system supplying it having a grounded conductor, though.)

This house has 3 prong outlets but no ground conductors to the outlets is that permitted by the NEC?

Yes, if supplied by GFCI protection, no interconnected grounding terminals, and being labeled.

Why does adding this last bit of information seem so familiar? ( )

 

[brett Harsha]

Based on left pic being the main panel:


Unless there is a main disconnect ahead of the panel, or you can de-energize the entire panel with no more than six "throw of the hand", that installation is not compliant.


What do you mean by "the service ground"? The green wire appears to run from panel to panel,


Yes, all other things being complaint; like a GFCI, an AFCI does not depend on an EGC to function.

(A GFCI device does depend on the system supplying it having a grounded conductor, though.)


Yes, if supplied by GFCI protection, no interconnected grounding terminals, and being labeled.

Why does adding this last bit of information seem so familiar? ( )

Yes I don't see a service ground bonded to the neutral, all I see is a green ground wire that appears to come from the sub-panel connected to the neutral bus. an earlier picture showed the ground and neutral bonded at the sub-panel.
I suspect this may be a split bus panel and the bottom AFCI breakers are protected from a main above although that would still leave 7 double pole breakers without a main. but who knows where the split is.

Does the AFCI serve to protect the same as a GFCI to a ungrounded 3 prong receptacle or does it need a GFCI as well?

So for the GFCI to work the neutral from the utility would have to be intact and a ground rod installed with all the necessary bonding to neutral and to water pipe etc.

Thanks

 

[retirede]

So for the GFCI to work the neutral from the utility would have to be intact and a ground rod installed with all the necessary bonding to neutral and to water pipe etc.

Thanks

No- a GFCI simply compares the current on the ungrounded conductor with that on the grounded conductor. If they differ by more than the design point of the device, it trips.

The operation has nothing to do with bonding or connection to dirt.

 

[LarryFine]

I would have to visit the site in person to really provide any more help.

 

[brett Harsha]

Thanks going to look at it tomorrow with an electrician