6 lead motor & VFD

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joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
We are attempting to connect a 6 lead 460 volt 100 HP part winding motor to a VFD. We connected leads 1 & 7 to T1, 2 & 8 to T2 and 3 & 9 to T3. We are getting fault codes on the drive and was told that the breaker in the panel tripped when the drive was put in bypass. I'm wondering if this motor and drive are compatible or if we have the motor wired correctly?
 

sii

Senior Member
Location
Nebraska
At first glance I'm wondering why, if it's a six-lead motor, you have leads numbered above six. I have no experience with part-winding motors but I don't believe you can connect one to a VFD.
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
I've seen 3, 9, 12 lead motors but I don't recall ever seeing a six lead.

We always wire part wind start motors to the RUN diagram when using a VFD. I googled and didn't get any noticeable hits for 6 lead. My ugly's only shows 9 lead motors too...
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
We are attempting to connect a 6 lead 460 volt 100 HP part winding motor to a VFD. We connected leads 1 & 7 to T1, 2 & 8 to T2 and 3 & 9 to T3. We are getting fault codes on the drive and was told that the breaker in the panel tripped when the drive was put in bypass. I'm wondering if this motor and drive are compatible or if we have the motor wired correctly?
Are you sure it's part winding?
Most of the six terminal motors I've seen have had both ends of the three stator windings brought out to terminals. This allows the motor to be connected in either star (wye) or delta. Can be used for Star-delta starting or for two different operating voltages.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
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Location
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Electrical Engineer
Most likely this is a semantics issue. "6 lead" technically means that there are six leads INSIDE OF THE PECKER HEAD, but you only bring 3 wires into it from the starter. On a Part Winding start configuration though, you bring 6 wires into it from the starter, but usually there are 9 or 12 "leads" inside of the pecker head. From the wire numbers, I'd say it is a 9 lead motor. Sometimes even if it is technically a 9 lead motor, you may only be able to see 6 of the 9 anyway, especially on older motors.

To make that work with a VFD supply where you are only going to bring 3 wires in from the VFD, you need to combine the two sets of windings. Look at this diagram:
120-12a.gif


120-12b.gif


For connecting a VFD, imagine that there are no contactors and each pair of wires must go to the VFD cables. So from this is looks as though you did it right, 1-7 to L1, 2-8 to L2, 3-9 to L3. But here is the caveat...

This diagram is the NEMA standard. Unfortunately not everyone uses the NEMA standard for Part Winding motors. In this drawing, 4, 5, and 6 are internally connected together to form the Wye (but as I said you may or may not be able to see them). I have seen some where 6, 7, and 8 are used instead of 7, 8 and 9, and the internal Wye ends of both sets of windings are all called "9" because they are all common to each other. Sometimes in that configuration, you will see 6 wires all with a number 9 on them, sometimes it is internal and you don't see them at all. We can't see your pecker head connection diagram. Does it look like this?

If this does look like your diagram, are you using a breaker that came from the old PW starter? Because if so, it might be too small to work for an Across-The-Line bypass. Technically, PW starters are supposed to have separate breakers (or fuses) for each set of windings, although that was a late change in the code and there are still a lot that do not. But if yours was one built to the newer standards and you are only using only one breaker, it may not be able to hold in under A-T-L inrush current.

As to the VFD faults, are you trying to use Vector Control? If so, did you perform an auto-tune? If not, VFD default settings for the motor parameters would not take into account the differences in the motor between standard and PW connections. Auto-tune would (should) have picked that up. If you are just running it n V/Hz mode, it should not have cared.
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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Electrical Engineer
Should also mention 2 more things:
  1. If it's a 12 lead motor, all of the above is out the window...
  2. Not all motors with 6 connection points are Part Winding, could just be dual voltage or Y delta.
 

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
Most likely this is a semantics issue. "6 lead" technically means that there are six leads INSIDE OF THE PECKER HEAD, but you only bring 3 wires into it from the starter. On a Part Winding start configuration though, you bring 6 wires into it from the starter, but usually there are 9 or 12 "leads" inside of the pecker head. From the wire numbers, I'd say it is a 9 lead motor. Sometimes even if it is technically a 9 lead motor, you may only be able to see 6 of the 9 anyway, especially on older motors.

To make that work with a VFD supply where you are only going to bring 3 wires in from the VFD, you need to combine the two sets of windings. Look at this diagram:
120-12a.gif


120-12b.gif


For connecting a VFD, imagine that there are no contactors and each pair of wires must go to the VFD cables. So from this is looks as though you did it right, 1-7 to L1, 2-8 to L2, 3-9 to L3. But here is the caveat...

This diagram is the NEMA standard. Unfortunately not everyone uses the NEMA standard for Part Winding motors. In this drawing, 4, 5, and 6 are internally connected together to form the Wye (but as I said you may or may not be able to see them). I have seen some where 6, 7, and 8 are used instead of 7, 8 and 9, and the internal Wye ends of both sets of windings are all called "9" because they are all common to each other. Sometimes in that configuration, you will see 6 wires all with a number 9 on them, sometimes it is internal and you don't see them at all. We can't see your pecker head connection diagram. Does it look like this?

If this does look like your diagram, are you using a breaker that came from the old PW starter? Because if so, it might be too small to work for an Across-The-Line bypass. Technically, PW starters are supposed to have separate breakers (or fuses) for each set of windings, although that was a late change in the code and there are still a lot that do not. But if yours was one built to the newer standards and you are only using only one breaker, it may not be able to hold in under A-T-L inrush current.

As to the VFD faults, are you trying to use Vector Control? If so, did you perform an auto-tune? If not, VFD default settings for the motor parameters would not take into account the differences in the motor between standard and PW connections. Auto-tune would (should) have picked that up. If you are just running it n V/Hz mode, it should not have cared.

Thanks this is very helpful, The label on the inside of the motor housing is stating that this is a "Part Winding" motor and is basically showing the same wiring diagram that you posted.Tthe start up was in bypass but I do not believe it was across the line but more of a V/Hz. I learned late last night that this motor has been sitting in this penthouse for about 6 years before we installed it, don't know if that makes any difference one way or the other.

Thanks Again.

Joe
 

stew

Senior Member
sounds like a single voltage part start and your connection is correct. Whose brand is it? Also if the drive was hooked up and the motor started fine on the vfd say on a lower setting and then the speed was increased and all was ok that sounds righ. Then if you put it in a bypass mode and tripped the breaker its possible that the breaker size is not high enough to get the motor started when started across the line. Make sense?
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
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Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
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Electrical Engineer
I'm a little confused and concerned about this statement.
...The start up was in bypass but I do not believe it was across the line but more of a V/Hz. ...
What do you mean by "bypass" and how would that relate to V/Hz? V/Hz is referring to a VFD operating mode, bypass would be starting it WITHOUT the VFD connected. I hope you are not just closing a contactor around the VFD without isolating the VFD output terminals! If so, the errors on your VFD and the breaker tripping are likely the result of a catastrophic failure of the VFD transistors; it's toast.
 
I'm a little confused and concerned about this statement.

What do you mean by "bypass" and how would that relate to V/Hz? V/Hz is referring to a VFD operating mode, bypass would be starting it WITHOUT the VFD connected. I hope you are not just closing a contactor around the VFD without isolating the VFD output terminals! If so, the errors on your VFD and the breaker tripping are likely the result of a catastrophic failure of the VFD transistors; it's toast.


Perhaps they connected 3 leads to the contactor and 3 leads to the ASD?;) If those are separate windings, energizing BOTH at the same time would be interesting. If the 6 leads are the two ends of the three windings, that would be even more interesting.;);););)
 

Jraef

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Location
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Electrical Engineer
Perhaps they connected 3 leads to the contactor and 3 leads to the ASD?;) If those are separate windings, energizing BOTH at the same time would be interesting. If the 6 leads are the two ends of the three windings, that would be even more interesting.;);););)

"Interesting" is putting it mildly.
 

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
I'm a little confused and concerned about this statement.

What do you mean by "bypass" and how would that relate to V/Hz? V/Hz is referring to a VFD operating mode, bypass would be starting it WITHOUT the VFD connected. I hope you are not just closing a contactor around the VFD without isolating the VFD output terminals! If so, the errors on your VFD and the breaker tripping are likely the result of a catastrophic failure of the VFD transistors; it's toast.

As I stated earlier the labeling on the motor is 6 lead part winding motor. The connections were T1-T7 to L1 output of the drive, T2-T8 to L2, and T3-T9 to L3. I confirmed this wiring with 3 of our motor vendors and all were in agreement that this wiring would be the correct application. Our initial start up was through the drive in the hand postion, This is where I may have confussed the issue in an earlier post by using the term Bypass, and incrementally ramped up.

Monday however the manual start up was left to the "building engineers" and it is my assumption that the motor may have been started in bypass. We were called back on site to try and resolve the problem and found the fault codes on the drive. Yester.day ABB came to troubleshoot and commision the drive, they claimed that leads 1,2,&3 should not have been connected. The leads were removed and the motor turned but it drew in exceess of 150 amps. I do not understand why the original wiring of the motor worked on Saturday and the motor failed on Monday. Would starting the motor in bypass damage the windings and/or the drive?
 

Jraef

Moderator, OTD
Staff member
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA, USA
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
The ABB tech is dead wrong about leads 1, 2, and 3 being left unconnected. If so, you are trying to run the motor on only 1/2 or 1/3 of the motor windings (hence the term "part" winding). Here is perhaps a better view of what the motor looks like inside to give you an idea. not connecting 1, 2, and 3 is like cutting out one set of windings.
motor_7.jpg


So we are back to defining the term "bypass". "Bypass" typically is a power reference and means "NOT connected to the VFD"; power would be connected from the line, through a motor starter, directly to the motor. In that mode, if there is also a VFD present, you MUST have a 2nd contactor isolating the VFD output terminals whicht is mechanically and electrically interlocked with the Bypass so that it must be open (off) before the Bypass Contactor can close, preventing an AC feedback onto the load terminals of the VFD and destroying the transistors.

If this was designed correctly and the breaker tripped when the building engineers tried to start it in "bypass", that may have been a problem with the breaker not being able to handle the Across-the-Line inrush current of the motor. There should not have been damage to the motor in that scenario however.

If the system was not designed correctly and the bypass contactor was energized without isolating the VFD output, you may have damaged the drive.

"Hand" mode is a control term meaning you are operating the controls of the drive locally, as in without any automation system connection. That would make no difference whatsoever in how the motor was powered.
 
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Why is there even a bypass involved with this motor?

Are you trying to ramp the motor with the VFD on only the start windings then switch to Run mode by dropping out the VFD and connecting both windings via the bypass contactor?

The descriptions and details given so far does not give me the confidence that this question can be substantially answered. (Like the whole questioning of HOW is teh bypass uinstalled went unanswered.)

In general there are three main resons for installing bypass.
  1. The motor only needs to be modulated in a very limited time period, like an agitator in a batch process in the first p[ahe of ingrediant addition is slowly turned then increases as viscosity reduced and turned to full speed on bypass for the majority of the reaction time completion.
  2. If the application is so critical that the failure of the ASD can not be tolerated. (When ASD were less reliable, several generations ago, bypasses were routinely added.
  3. When a single ASD is used on a multimotor parallel pumping operation and it is desired that each driver(motor) is used to the same time period for equalizing wear and tear.
 

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
The descriptions and details given so far does not give me the confidence that this question can be substantially answered. (Like the whole questioning of HOW is teh bypass uinstalled went unanswered.)

In general there are three main resons for installing bypass.
  1. The motor only needs to be modulated in a very limited time period, like an agitator in a batch process in the first p[ahe of ingrediant addition is slowly turned then increases as viscosity reduced and turned to full speed on bypass for the majority of the reaction time completion.
  2. If the application is so critical that the failure of the ASD can not be tolerated. (When ASD were less reliable, several generations ago, bypasses were routinely added.
  3. When a single ASD is used on a multimotor parallel pumping operation and it is desired that each driver(motor) is used to the same time period for equalizing wear and tear.

This motor installation is a simple air handler with the motor control being provided via a VFD (ABB ACH550). This particular drive has 2 control panels or points, again not sure if the terminology that I am using is correct, the lower control point you can select to operate the motor via the drive or in bypass,this is all one self contained unit. With that being said I am assumming that it is not possible to operate the motor in bypass if the drive function is enabled, some sort of interlock. I do understand that the bypass mode is an across the line start. The upper control point is strictly for the drive.

I don't know if I stated this earlier but when we initially started the motor it was through the drive, with no control wiring to the ems yet in place we started the motor in hand and brought it up to 35Hz, everything worked correctly at the end of the day Saturday and the motor was stopped at the drive control point using the stop button. All that was required to start the motor again was simply press the hand button on the upper control and the motor would have started and increased in speed until it reached 35Hz.

Fast Forward to Monday mornings disaster, damaged motor, fault codes on the drive display, one of which was bypass contactor stuck. I was being told on Tuesday by the ABB start up tech that the motor was incorrectly wired and that this caused the damage to the motor and the bypass contactor. I am just trying to understand how this could be when the motor by all accounts was wired properly, according to all the people I have spoken to and heard from in this thread, and how did the damage occur to that contactor.
 
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stew

Senior Member
I am back to where a couple of us are on this that across the line the main breaker is too small to get that load started,hence the trip in bypass. I am however puzzled by the last satement that there is "contactor damage".? Has the motor been damaged do you think? VCan it still be started with the vfd on? And are you absolutley certain that the interlock works to keep the vfd off when the bypass is on?
 

joebell

Senior Member
Location
New Hampshire
I am back to where a couple of us are on this that across the line the main breaker is too small to get that load started,hence the trip in bypass. I am however puzzled by the last satement that there is "contactor damage".? Has the motor been damaged do you think? VCan it still be started with the vfd on? And are you absolutley certain that the interlock works to keep the vfd off when the bypass is on?

Yes I am aware that the across the line start may have tripped the breaker, The contactor damage happened Monday morning when the building engineer started the motor. When I arrived to respond to the problem I found "BYPASS CONTACTOR STUCK" on the display. The ABB techs were on site Tuesday and were trying to tell me the motor was improperly wired and that most likely caused the damage.

As for the interlock I'm not sure if on exists or if it does is it functioning properly.


The bypass button should never have been pressed on this unit just the stop and hand on the drive control. This would have operated the motor correctly. What went wrong, I can only speculate . As for the motor we replaced it yesterday and we are sending it to a motor shop for testing to help us understand what went wrong.
 
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