600.7

[neonjoe]

I've been lurking here for some time, so I thought I'd preface this question with an introduction. I'm a sign electrician with neon being my forte. I have no formal education except as a first year apprentice out of Local 212 in Cincinnati before I joined the Marines back in '66. I've been in the sign trade most of my life, and make every effort to keep up with the NEC, at least as far as my trade goes.

A question that has been on my mind for a long time surely will get an answer on this board. Art. 600 is titled "Electric Signs and Outline Lighting". 600.7 states, "Signs and metal equipment of outline lighting shall be grounded." I'm quoting the 2002 NEC, as I've left my 2005 at the shop, but I don't think it has changed. It doesn't say "Electric Signs", but just "Signs". A friend in Texas is telling me that his AHJ is requiring that all signs, electric or not, must be grounded.

Another friend in Illinois is telling me that his AHJ doesn't require LED signs to be grounded because of the low DC voltage.

My interpretation of 600.7, since the title of the Article is "Electric Signs..." is that all electric signs, be they 12v DC LED's, 120v incandescent, or 7500v neon shall be grounded, no exceptions noted.

Thanks in advance for any and all answers. Joe Wartman

 

[infinity]

A question that has been on my mind for a long time surely will get an answer on this board. Art. 600 is titled "Electric Signs and Outline Lighting". 600.7 states, "Signs and metal equipment of outline lighting shall be grounded." I'm quoting the 2002 NEC, as I've left my 2005 at the shop, but I don't think it has changed. It doesn't say "Electric Signs", but just "Signs". A friend in Texas is telling me that his AHJ is requiring that all signs, electric or not, must be grounded.

If the sign is not lit, than how could it possibly be part of an outline lighting system?

 

[neonjoe]

Though closely related, electric signs and outline lighting are two different things. The most common example of outline lighting would be skeleton neon border tubing in a window or highlighting the shape of a building. The most common example of an electric sign, I'm afraid, is "OPEN".

 

[infinity]

Though closely related, electric signs and outline lighting are two different things. The most common example of outline lighting would be skeleton neon border tubing in a window or highlighting the shape of a building. The most common example of an electric sign, I'm afraid, is "OPEN".

OK, but your post mentioned that someone was requiring non-electric or lighted signs to be grounded. I don't see where 600.7 makes this a requirement. If a building has a metal sign with no lighting, outline or otherwise are you saying that someone is requiring that it be grounded?

 

[George Stolz]

Joe, I would agree with you with one condition: the listing of the equipment would likely dictate with more specifics about how the bonding is to be achieved, or if it's necessary, IMO.

Just to be clear, I am specifically using the word bonding in regards to this requirement. IMO, it is laying down requirements for bonding, not grounding as the title implies.

 

[neonjoe]

To Infinity:
That's exactly what I'm saying. My guess is that the AHJ saw in 600.7 the word 'sign', and not 'electric sign' and interpreted that to mean all metal signs, though, how an electrical inspector would even be involved in a non-electrical sign in the first place beats me. He wouldn't in my neck of the woods. But if there weren't different interpretations of the NEC, I guess there wouldn't be a need for Mike Holt's Code Forum.

I think this is an extreme case, one which you probably won't find anywhere else. My question concerning grounding the metal equipment of LED signs, though, can possibly have legitimate different opinions (not in my mind). Would anybody care to chime in on that one?

 

[sandsnow]

Joe

See 600.1 Scope. It only covers electric signs.

An inspector who would ask for that(grounding a non-electric sign) is mistaken.

I haven't seen instalation instructions for LED section signs yet. Since the sign has to be listed, I would be curious as to UL's take on this issue (grounding of LED signs).